Proposed changes for underperforming jobs

[Semirhage]

I think at that point, my understanding is correct, or at least close to it. I'm just putting too much emphasis on the minor potency gain from the ver spells vs the weaker melee combo hits. I suppose saying that it's "not worth using" it's a gross overstatement.

I think the issue here is if you sacrifice the last three stacks of Manafication to the potency-weaker melee combo, you can fit a second Verholy/flare+Scorch+Resolution under Embolden, which closes the gap due to the spell combo being higher potency.

[Lanvaldear]

I think the issue here is if you sacrifice the last three stacks of Manafication to the potency-weaker melee combo, you can fit a second Verholy/flare+Scorch+Resolution under Embolden, which closes the gap due to the spell combo being higher potency.

You should still be able to do today because of the alignment of mama/embolden I think?

[SaberMaxwell]

The embo buff lasts 20 seconds. One melee combo takes 12.7 seconds to finish, or 25.4 seconds to do both; its already a tight fit to get two resos under one embo, let alone if you break the flow to maximize potential for manafication stacks.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your statement.

[Lanvaldear]

The embo buff lasts 20 seconds. One melee combo takes 12.7 seconds to finish, or 25.4 seconds to do both; its already a tight fit to get two resos under one embo, let alone if you break the flow to maximize potential for manafication stacks.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your statement.

Why would balance mention using mana that way then? Is it relying on old information?

[SaberMaxwell]

Why would balance mention using mana that way then? Is it relying on old information?

If you could link where specifically the Balance talks about this so I could take a specific look I'd appreciate it. When I opened the Balance back up to check, the first guide I saw was of course the beginner's guide, wherein the section talking about manafication specifically states:

"Another important characteristic of Manafication is the ability to use it between Enchanted Redoublement and Verholy/Verflare. Manafication explicitly breaks any existing combo, which means you cannot use it between melee weaponskills or finishers. However, as mentioned previously, our melee weaponskills and finishers are considered two separate combo chains by the game, so using Manafication after Enchanted Redoublement will not cause us to lose Verholy/Verflare from combo breakage.

The main benefit of using Manafication in this fashion is to get it on cooldown faster without significantly overcapping on mana in situations where you have high mana with Manafication off cooldown. When doing this, your first three Manafication stacks will be used on your finishers, while the last three can be used on the first three hits of an immediate second combo, effectively buffing the same GCDs as using Manafication before your combo."

A lot of stuff on the Balance, when it comes to optimization, is in near theoreticals. For instance, in the same guide it talks about popping manafication on cooldown, which in THEORY makes sense when killtime is unknown, but the number of fights where you get an extra manafication by popping it on cooldown is so low I can't even think of one. Maybe during prog it's not a bad idea, or even in a situation where you know you're going to be forced to hold on the 2 minute anyway. Point is, in theory I agree but in practice I don't see a lot of places it comes into play.

[Lanvaldear]

If you could link where specifically the Balance talks about this so I could take a specific look I'd appreciate it. When I opened the Balance back up to check, the first guide I saw was of course the beginner's guide, wherein the section talking about manafication specifically states:

De-syncing Manafication, normal combos and buff alignment

A common misconception among newer players is that misaligning Manafication with Embolden means we do not use melee combo under buffs. This is not the case. We can simply build up Mana above 50|50 and spend it when buffs come, as long as we don’t overcap by going beyond 100|100. The 5% self-buff from Manafication is decent, but only amounts to ~150 potency when applied to all six melee combo hits.

In practice, outside of our buff windows, we accomplish this by using Manafication after Enchanted Redoublement, using our three finishers, then going back to Dualcast after. What this does is keep our Manafication cooldown running early, while “carrying over” our Mana prior to using Manafication.

This allows us to continuously build up enough Mana to do two normal melee combos under buffs later, as shown below. Note the Manafication timing and “Gauges” tab showing Mana values at the top, and how much Mana there is for a double combo later:

alt_text

This also means Manafication will buff three normal spellcasting GCDs after the finishers. In terms of potency, three finishers + three normal casts is marginally higher than our melee hits (~1-8 potency difference for single target spells, depending which ones casted). However, three spells also take longer to use than our melee hits. Due to Manafication’s 15 second buff timer, you should either late weave Manafication here, or have your third spell be an instant cast to avoid the 5% damage buff from dropping off on our last cast.

[SaberMaxwell]

De-syncing Manafication, normal combos and buff alignment

A common misconception among newer players is that misaligning Manafication with Embolden means we do not use melee combo under buffs. This is not the case. We can simply build up Mana above 50|50 and spend it when buffs come, as long as we don’t overcap by going beyond 100|100. The 5% self-buff from Manafication is decent, but only amounts to ~150 potency when applied to all six melee combo hits.

In practice, outside of our buff windows, we accomplish this by using Manafication after Enchanted Redoublement, using our three finishers, then going back to Dualcast after. What this does is keep our Manafication cooldown running early, while “carrying over” our Mana prior to using Manafication.

This allows us to continuously build up enough Mana to do two normal melee combos under buffs later, as shown below. Note the Manafication timing and “Gauges” tab showing Mana values at the top, and how much Mana there is for a double combo later:

alt_text

This also means Manafication will buff three normal spellcasting GCDs after the finishers. In terms of potency, three finishers + three normal casts is marginally higher than our melee hits (~1-8 potency difference for single target spells, depending which ones casted). However, three spells also take longer to use than our melee hits. Due to Manafication’s 15 second buff timer, you should either late weave Manafication here, or have your third spell be an instant cast to avoid the 5% damage buff from dropping off on our last cast.

I see the misconception. This is specifically in the case that your manafy is desynched from buff windows, which if you're using off CD will happen. Bolded also is where the guide says this is marginal at best potency-wise. The big gain is getting more mana for more melee combos throughout the fight of course, so in the above situation you're simply going to pick up some extra potency while maintaining the mana needed for your eventual burst combo.

[Lanvaldear]

I see the misconception. This is specifically in the case that your manafy is desynched from buff windows, which if you're using off CD will happen. Bolded also is where the guide says this is marginal at best potency-wise. The big gain is getting more mana for more melee combos throughout the fight of course, so in the above situation you're simply going to pick up some extra potency while maintaining the mana needed for your eventual burst combo.

If we're using mana on CD with no drift, that will naturally occur anyway, right?

[SaberMaxwell]

If we're using mana on CD with no drift, that will naturally occur anyway, right?

If, and yes that will. Like I said though, in theory mana on CD is better but in practice very few fights come close to seeing that being a gain over just comboing it with Embo. What needs to be considered is it's not just embo that's getting stacked with manafy, but everyone's buff windows becaue of this dreadful, destructive, annoying lovely two minute burst cycle the devs gifted most every job with. So casually dumping manafy outside of it is really hard to justify, at least imo, because it's so rare you'll get an extra use of it from doing that. Most fights that are long enough for that to happen already have enough downtime to force drift everything in wonky ways anyway.

[Lanvaldear]

If, and yes that will. Like I said though, in theory mana on CD is better but in practice very few fights come close to seeing that being a gain over just comboing it with Embo. What needs to be considered is it's not just embo that's getting stacked with manafy, but everyone's buff windows becaue of this dreadful, destructive, annoying lovely two minute burst cycle the devs gifted most every job with. So casually dumping manafy outside of it is really hard to justify, at least imo, because it's so rare you'll get an extra use of it from doing that. Most fights that are long enough for that to happen already have enough downtime to force drift everything in wonky ways anyway.

Wonderful. When I first started playing RDM years ago, mana and embo we're both the same CD, then I dropped it for a while and came back to them desynced and balanced said to use it on CD, which I never liked. I'll adjust my playstyle and give it a go.