People who can't do AOE rotations in 70+ Content

[ty_taurus]

You know I've tried that, just forgo healing all together during those dungeons and DPS during mob pulls and my group just kept wiping and called me out for not healing and I said "Oh I'm sorry, I thought healers weren't supposed to heal" and they kicked me out.


Needless to say that little experiment of mine kinda proved how disingenuous and bs that mentality can be that you don't need to heal at all in dungeons. Or probably that the group just sucked in general, can't be my fault now can it? Noo...

The disconnect here is that you shouldn't need to GCD heal in dungeons generally. You have the power to weave healing between DPS spells, so rather than stopping to cast Physick on the tank, you should be using Excogitation, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Indomitability, Fey Blessing, Summon Seraph, Aetherpact, Whispering Dawn... You don't have all of these right after level 60, but you should at most need an Adlo or 2 if you're struggling.

WHM has less OGCD healing to rely on, so they're a bit of an outlier, but Holy's stun followed by a Regen, followed by another Holy stun will give you a lot of time of no damage. You'll also have Divine Benison, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, and Benediction if you need it. You still shouldn't be standing there spamming Cure or Cure II.

If you do feel like you can't survive without that, you're either not using your cooldowns, or the tank isn't.

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

I remember farming Antitower for one step of the Bozja relic as SCH for the fast queues, a level 60 dungeon, and I quite literally never had to even touch a single healing button. Eos did 100% of the healing that I needed for the trash and the bosses.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The disconnect here is that you shouldn't need to GCD heal in dungeons generally. You have the power to weave healing between DPS spells, so rather than stopping to cast Physick on the tank, you should be using Excogitation, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Indomitability, Fey Blessing, Summon Seraph, Aetherpact, Whispering Dawn... You don't have all of these right after level 60, but you should at most need an Adlo or 2 if you're struggling.

WHM has less OGCD healing to rely on, so they're a bit of an outlier, but Holy's stun followed by a Regen, followed by another Holy stun will give you a lot of time of no damage. You'll also have Divine Benison, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, and Benediction if you need it. You still shouldn't be standing there spamming Cure or Cure II.

If you do feel like you can't survive without that, you're either not using your cooldowns, or the tank isn't.

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

I remember farming Antitower for one step of the Bozja relic as SCH for the fast queues, a level 60 dungeon, and I quite literally never had to even touch a single healing button. Eos did 100% of the healing that I needed for the trash and the bosses.

Ohhhh no we are getting a little bit more into this argument now. See this is what Ive been wanting to hear. Not any of these stupid "lol dont need to heal" comments. So case in point, you do need to heal.

[ty_taurus]

Ohhhh no we are getting a little bit more into this argument now. See this is what Ive been wanting to hear. Not any of these stupid "lol dont need to heal" comments. So case in point, you do need to heal.

I mean, when people say "you don't need to heal," it's moreso exaggerating that all the healing you need to do is done through OGCDs, and not very many of them. It's done to address how little healing is actually required--that good healing means not touching your GCD heals and just spamming your DPS.

I listed off all the tools you have to work with on SCH, but you shouldn't actually need all of them. I don't play SCH at all after ShB, but I'd pre-place Recitation-boosted Excog on the tank then hit them with Aetherpact and I imagine that would be enough in most scenarios. I have more experience wth SGE, so I can give a more detailed example of what I've done to heal dungeons:

Kardia on the tank, pre-pull cast E. Diagnosis on them, and everyone else if time allowed before we engage with the trash wave, then weave Kerachole after some DPS. After 15 seconds passes, I'll heal the tank with Taurochole. That's it. That's usually more than enough for almost every dungeon pull I've ever gone through. If things actually do get messier, I'll use Soteria and/or Haima as needed. If the dungeon level is lower than when Kerachole gets its HoT, I can just use Drocholes instead.

[Mikey_R]

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

This is literally just to do with the range of ilevel the dungeons are made to accommodate. The ilevel range for a levelling dungeon is much smaller than a max level dungeon, so you effectively are running it close to minimum ilevel, even at the max sync.

[ty_taurus]

This is literally just to do with the range of ilevel the dungeons are made to accommodate. The ilevel range for a levelling dungeon is much smaller than a max level dungeon, so you effectively are running it close to minimum ilevel, even at the max sync.

I know why it happens, but that doesn't make it good. Max level dungeons shouldn't have these wide ilvl ranges when leveling dungeons don't. It's bizarre and feels backwards if anything. How is something called "Expert Roulette" the roulette that chooses between what are essentially two of the easiest dungeons in the game? Other than just familiarity due to repetition, why are they some of the most gentle-hitting dungeons in the game? That isn't good design.

[Mikey_R]

I know why it happens, but that doesn't make it good. Max level dungeons shouldn't have these wide ilvl ranges when leveling dungeons don't. It's bizarre and feels backwards if anything. How is something called "Expert Roulette" the roulette that chooses between what are essentially two of the easiest dungeons in the game? Other than just familiarity due to repetition, why are they some of the most gentle-hitting dungeons in the game? That isn't good design.

Oh, I do fully agree. Dungeons where you don't vastly out-gear them are much more fun. The best time to do max level dungeons are at the start of an expansion where you cannot out-gear them and they are actually threatening.

I also hate the fact expert only has the 2 most recent dungeons, I would prefer it kept everything in it but treat it like other roulettes, you need to have at least 2 dungeons unlocked to use it and it picks from what you have unlocked. At least there would be more variety that way, even if the gear gets synced down.

[ty_taurus]

Oh, I do fully agree. Dungeons where you don't vastly out-gear them are much more fun. The best time to do max level dungeons are at the start of an expansion where you cannot out-gear them and they are actually threatening.

I also hate the fact expert only has the 2 most recent dungeons, I would prefer it kept everything in it but treat it like other roulettes, you need to have at least 2 dungeons unlocked to use it and it picks from what you have unlocked. At least there would be more variety that way, even if the gear gets synced down.

I'd argue the concept of Expert Roulette vs Level 90 Roulette is no longer necessary. Back when each patch added 2 dungeons, it made sense because you'd end up with a fairly long list of max level dungeons, but since we've gone down to 1 dungeon per patch, I think just having Expert Roulette be the level 90 Roulette makes more sense. What we could do by the time the .3 patch roles around (e.g. 6.3) is split it up then to have 3/3 between Expert and level 90, and then 4/3 respectively by 6.4 and 4/4 by 6.5. It's a little wonky but would feel better in my opinion.

On a separate topic, I'd also like to see 50/60/70/80 split up into 50/60 Roulette and 70/80 Roulette. A big part of the roulettes is trying to ensure that there's a healthy population of players available to help others clear those dungeons for the first time, but each expansion is going to continue pulling on that. The same could be argued for leveling dungeons, trials, alliances, and normal raids. What we might eventually see is a big addition of more roulettes, but daily roulette allowances with some time of added incentive for certain roulettes. Like who's going to do Guildheist roulettes if that consumes 1 allowance? So there'd need to be some more detailed organization of how that plays out.