General Healer Discussion [The Echo Chamber]

[ForsakenRoe]

"What happens when you overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one to extend the duration?"

while im still here, im pretty sure BRD actually shows exactly what would happen, it'd remove the buffs of the snapshotted version and replace it with an extended, unsnapshotted version, meaning exactly as you say, the 'optimal strat' is to double Dia in raidbuffs and then ignore it for an entire minute.

[flowerfairy]

So making Dia stack to 60 seconds would add even more thoughtful gameplay?

Nope, because Storm's Eye is locked behind 3 GCDs. Every time you press Maim, you're presented with a choice: Do more damage with Storm's Path, or extend your Storm's Eye. This choice requires you to examine your current Beast gauge status, your current Storm's Eye duration, and the time remaining for next raid buffs. You need to pay attention, that's the most important part. Storm's Eye's flexibility is really overcap protection more than anything, but you can still choose to play it safe by always using it at the 30s mark, or push for more damage by letting it drop lower. Dia going up to 60s doesn't present you with any choice. It actually detriments you by increasing the optimized cooldown of an instant cast. If it was something that stacks up like 30s + 30s it only gives you an optimized instant cast for the next 30s. Strong, I suppose, but still lacking in depth.

I don't think the solution is more actions or DoTs, I believe it's more repurposing the existing actions to achieve a more varied effect. But I will note again many people have been asking for 1-2-3s to be turned into 1 button, which means a lot of people actually would prefer the 1 button business.

In essence, no one who's arguing for more engaging healer damage kits is specifically asking for more buttons to press. They're asking for more meaningful downtime buttons because Glare doesn't do that. You can call Fluid Aura meaningless fluff, but it can be on a different cooldown than Assize just like RDM's crystal sword oGCDs and it's already something different to look for. But again, something like OP's reworks are more preferable.

Aero III used to not have an instant cast proc but why not now? Having its own button allows for that instant cast movement choice when you want to use it, so we don't need to backload Glare or Holy or Misery with stuff that doesn't matter in single target fights. This A3 idea isn't a new DoT, it's a DoT extension, something WHM doesn't have anywhere else, so I don't see the problem with it.

[Renathras]

Actually, I don't think this works for DoTs,...

I tend to find it dubious when a claim is made about two things that are mechanically similar, where one is heralded as nuanced and complex and the other...not. Yes, they aren't the same, but they're similar enough if Storm's Eye being easier to manage is somehow more complex (that...isn't possible), then Dia should be the same.

Though, honestly, it would end up more like Regrowth for Resto Druids in WoW. I think it was Regrowth... In WoW, Resto Druids had (may still, but haven't played in years) a HoT that stacked to 3. Refreshing it before the duration expired would refresh all three stacks. So the gameplay was basically to always clip it just before it went away, that way you keep the mega tick healing, generally on the main tank. It was a maintenance plate spinning, but I actually found it enjoyable. If Dia worked this way, you wouldn't be "overwriting it". You cast Dia under buff windows and then you make sure to refresh it to keep it up. As long as you do so, it would maintain the snapshot. So you couldn't "overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one". It would keep the buffed potency as long as it didn't fall off.

And if it DID fall off, you'd be applying an unbuffed one. The exception to this rule (like with shields) is that a stronger one would overwrite it. So if you dropped your buffed Dia (even with the 60 sec generous window to reapply) and had to reapply it outside of buff windows, this WOULD be a DPS loss, but you could reestablish the buffed version in the next buff window.

This would raise the skill ceiling and give more nuance to the Job's "core rotation" (stuff you guys want) as you work to maximize keeping buffed Dia on the target, and with skill expression in the sense of failing to do this would cause a lower DPS Dia and then having to reapply it early once the next buff window hit to recapture the buffed snapshot. AT THE WORST, it would be no easier than now, and because dropping a Dia would be more punishing than now, it would grant a higher skill ceiling, even while having a more generous reapply duration.

It would also mean you don't HAVE to apply it to 60 seconds right away in any buff window. You could ride the edge playing as if it only had 30 sec like today if you wanted, as long as you didn't let it drop off.

The best part is - regarding your final paragraph - since the more powerful always overwrites the weaker one, it would mean even players uninformed on snapshotting would benefit from good play (100% uptime) because at some point their Dia would be refreshed in the buff windows and, keeping it up for the fight, they'd get that boosted damage. So this is a win for everyone, even the uninformed.

Fair?

EDIT:

my point is that WHM SCH and AST had a mile taken from them in the SB-SHB transition, but your stance seems to be 'ok SCH and AST can have their mile back, but only if WHM's mile stays confiscated'

I've said this dozens of times here before, so I know you've seen it - WHM didn't have a mile taken away from SB to ShB. It actually got BETTER in ShB. WHM traded Aero 3 for Misery and 30 sec Regen HoTs (Medica 2 and I think Regen used to be 30 sec) vs 18 sec DoTs into 30 sec DoTs and 18/15 sec HoTs. There was no mile confiscated. SB to ShB WHM was, at worst, a side-grade, and a good one since SB WHM was in the worst place it's been in the game in terms of identity, functionality vs encounter mechanics, and the meta. Even SCH and AST players who never touched WHM were talking at the time about how bad it was.

So I'm not saying "give AST and SCH their good stuff back but don't give WHM their good stuff back". I'm saying "give AST and SCH their good stuff back - because they were actually GOOD in SB - and leave WHM alone because it's actually BETTER now than it was in SB".

As for the SGE thing - thing is, look at all those other changes. I'm saying leave WHM as it is. Your counter is "what if SGE was that instead?"

What that means is we would have to change SGE into WHM. No Kardia, change Addersgall to Lilies, change its GCD heals/add GCD heals for Medica 2, Cure 3, etc etc, give it Holy, and so on. That is, copy WHM's kit exactly as it is today since that's the kit I'm arguing we keep. So we'd have to take WHM as it is in the game, copy all its abilities, replace them with SGE icons and SGE names, but make them do what the WHM versions do today, strip its oGCD kit and Kardia system, etc.

...and now, in addition to having a TON more work when we could just leave WHM as it is, we've now pissed off all the SGE players that love SGE as it is today because it's got a somewhat distinct gameplay style to them. So now you've made even more people mad and done a ton of extra work for no gain.

As for "have your cake and eat it, too", I'm trying to be charitable and nice and not just say "you want to selfishly have all the healers to yourself and callously screw anyone else". I'm trying to be a bit more polite and less attacky - because even if in defense, apparently my attacks are the only ones that get called out here.

As to WoW:

If Blizzard wasn't a toxic company these days?

I also hate WoW's art style and always have, and I don't care much for its story. I also have no friends that play WoW. And FFXIV already has Jobs that play the way I like to play. Not to mention I'd have to buy a new game/expansions that I don't have and pay a second sub fee to a toxic company. Collectively given all that, why would I switch? I do agree in a way it might be more up my alley, which is why I'm watching Pantheon and, to a point, Ashes of Creation with some interest.

I especially like that both games are going for a Quaterny instead of Trinity, with Bard and Enchanter in Pantheon and Bard in Ashes of Creation as full on Support/Control role classes. Pantheon, in particular, seems to want to be an old school MMO with a modern coat of graphical paint and some updated systems, and looks like they plan to have three healers - "main heal" focused Clerics, support focused Shaman (buffs/debuffs), and damage focused Druids (passable heals married to a DPS kit), as well as having the Bard and Enchanter which are two flavors of Support, with Bard likely being more about party buffs and Enchanter more about debuffs and crowd control vs the enemy. I feel like a system like that - which is arguably what I'm asking for with the "Four Healers" idea for FFXIV - is best since it allows everyone to filter to the one they like best. For example, I'd probably play a Cleric in Pantheon while folks like you might find Shaman, Druid, or even Bard (or even Enchanter) more fun. But in a game that actually has them all as class options to pick, we all get to pick the one we like and all get to be meaningful and useful party members, standing side by side and playing our way together.

Everybody wins.

That's what I want for us in FFXIV, too, albeit on a less overarching scale (since FFXIV won't make Support it's own fully supported role...which means sub-roles of those types are a bit more tricky, particularly the debuffer Control aspect)

Oh, I know Aero 3 was a gain on single target. I didn't say it wasn't. I said at the time, most people thought Aero 3 was for AOE. It's been a while, but I remember someone chewing me out in - I think it was HW - for using Aero 3 on a single target saying not to do it because it was for AOE only. I'm not saying that was RIGHT, just that it was a more widespread belief at the time. ARR/HW had a lot of weirdness like that where players didn't realize how DoTs worked so they didn't realize how good they were until parses and theorycrafters started actually doing numbers on enemies and target dummies and figured out how they work. The tooltips didn't then - and don't now - say the potency of the DoT is "per tick" not "over the duration".

Oh, and as for the "leave 1" vs "leave 1-2", I could explain it, but...yeah. You don't care, so what's the point?

.

EDIT due to daily post limit:

Ah, another beautiful opportunity to expose the BLATANT HYPOCRISY. (see, I can do the caps and bold thing too)

For someone who rants about others not reading your posts you have not been doing much reading yourself, Renathras. Otherwise you would have found out that the buffs are actually snapshot on every refresh. Every use of skill. Every time you press the button. There is no way to make a single buff snapshot benefit for an infinite durartion. But somehow you arrived to the exact opposite conclusion which happens... to suit your narrative better.

How curious...

Thank you for finally proving something to me I was uncertain of for a while...I appreciate that new certainty. Even if it was accidental, thank you.

If you read my post, you might understand I was proposing a change to where the stronger version overwrote the weaker version. So yet again I must admonish you:

If you actually read my posts instead of making up things about them, we might actually have a good discussion.

Also regarding your "gocha": You needing to use bolded caps doesn't apply. As I said in that other reply, I have to do it because you don't read my posts - something you've proven yet again with this reply of yours - but you don't need to do it because I actually do read your posts. To the point I often take them line by line, which I've been chided for doing, but is the proof I actually do not only read them, but read every line of them.

.

Serious talk:

If Dia did work that way - could be refreshed, stacks up to 60 seconds, each refresh extended the current potency if it was stronger, if a stronger was applied it would overwrite the weaker (this is literally how shields in this game work right now, and HoTs too, so it's not like this is somehow impossible): Would this be better?

Remember: As much as I hate DoTs, it's because I hate busywork DoTs - I've said before DoTs with interesting interactions I like more. One of my past proposals, lest you forget, was to make it where Dia (or Combust or whatever) could stack to 3 and refreshing it maintained all stacks. You guys poo-poo'd that, but the point is, I'm not against ALL DoTs. If a DoT has some interesting interactions - and to me "interesting interaction" is literally anything that isn't just "place on target, refresh on CD, maybe capture under buff windows" - then I'm not as opposed to it. Hence why I said above (or in one of the other threads) Glare causing a Bane effect to spread Dia I would be okay with since that's SOMETHING of an interesting interaction and doesn't require any additional button bloat for the bargain.

[Azuri]

The best part is - regarding your final paragraph - since the more powerful always overwrites the weaker one, it would mean even players uninformed on snapshotting would benefit from good play (100% uptime) because at some point their Dia would be refreshed in the buff windows and, keeping it up for the fight, they'd get that boosted damage. So this is a win for everyone, even the uninformed.

Ah, another beautiful opportunity to expose the BLATANT HYPOCRISY. (see, I can do the caps and bold thing too)

For someone who rants about others not reading your posts you have not been doing much reading yourself, Renathras. Otherwise you would have found out that the buffs are actually snapshot on every refresh. Every use of skill. Every time you press the button. There is no way to make a single buff snapshot benefit for an infinite durartion. But somehow you arrived to the exact opposite conclusion which happens... to suit your narrative better.

How curious...

[T-Owl]

Nerd Rage, not in a good way

I mean, you are regularily writing entire walls of text with no other content than bashing gamer girls and just insulted me as a narcissist, which I yet again reported you for. Forum Moderation is pretty bad btw, I'm pretty sure if you talked like that to people ingame, you probably wouldn't have a FF14 Account anymore at this point

Then explain to me, where I'm actually wrong. You over and over demand, that the most iconic Final Fantasy Healer remains a job which performs 80-90% of any given encounter by presson one single button, which is by far below the requirements of successful play of any other class. Higher healing requirements don't seem to be it either, considering that keep on mentioning the increased healing requirements in the current tier as the reason why healers drop out of PF. So what utility to you see in a healer having a 1 button dps rotation with scarce healing requirements which often enforce less involvement than most dps and tank classes offensive dps kit, outside of feeling entitled to a simpler role in this game.

you also argued with how things where back in ARR, but most classes were actually alot easier during ARR. Most classes had little in terms of a ogcd toolkit or even something like a cauge to manage and where mostly busy with playing their gcd combo rotation with a few extra buttons. Most classes gained in complexity over the course of the last few expansions. Sure, some classes also lost it again or where simplified afterwards again and lost out on some complexities, but overall most classes got more abilities, ogcds to weave in and mechanics introduced over the years which made them more complex and difficult to play. Even tanks while losing the complexities of aggro management get offensive tools added to them each expansion. It is only healers which became absolutely more simplified and one note to play over the course of the last expansions.

[Semirhage]

So I'd like to know, whether in an overview or a more detailed explanation, what you would do with WHM if you had a genie wish and could do literally anything you wanted to it.

Oh, come to think of it. I have a genie wish, but it's not exactly related to WHM. I'd want to create a brand new healer job. Not sure what I'd name it, maybe Pure Healer. It'd have maybe 2-4 GCD heals to cover single target and AOE. A Medica 2 equivalent for those who like regens. A Succor-like equivalent with a damage reduction for the mitigation aspect. The job gauge is called the Sanctimony meter. See, the job would have no damage buttons. Just a passive (or actively refreshed, I'm not picky) +50% damage buff to all party members. Instead it would have a spell that replaces all single-target and AOE damage abilities from healers with a GCD called "Don't be hyperbolic I'm not just pressing ONE button. There are several in this kit". It would be a unique ability, impossible to bind to the 1 key specifically so that when people accuse this healer of pressing 111111111 they can easily say "Nuh uh, don't be ridiculous. This spell is bound to 2."

What the spell would do is provide a variety of randomized favorite catchphrases (fully voice acted!), like one of those Chatty Cathy dolls with the pull string on the back. A non-exhaustive list includes:

• I chose a HEALer to HEAL
• I'm on this job because I know what REAL healing is. All the others are just fake DPS mains besmirching the name of REAL healing.
• All of you are elitist tryhards obsessed with numbers. I actually play this game to have fun. You don't know what REAL fun is.
• I'm focused on HEALing. My cohealer is a parse-obsessed DPS wolf in healer's clothing. I'm doing all of the REAL work.
• Redditors and statistics agree that simpler classes are more popular. That means I'm more enlightened than the rest of you.
• All of you think runs are perfect! You don't know what a REAL HEALER does when someone gets a vulnerability stack. I'm the one saving our runs here. Me.
• If you don't hear anything in the next few seconds you should know it's because I'm HEALing. You know, like a HEALER should. Pay attention to how a REAL healer plays.
• I'M playing the most powerful and useful healer. My cohealer is holding you back with their fake non-healing tryhard elitist DPS main nonsense. I'm the one REALLY contributing here.

When the Sanctimony gauge hits 10 stacks, it automatically deducts 50% of all party members' remaining HP and doubles the damage buff aura to +100% for 15 seconds. The HP deduction gives the Pure Healer more opportunities to increase their HPS contribution. The damage buff they provide is strong enough that they'd be limited to one per party unless running unrestricted.

I think it would make a lot of people happy. It'd be designated as the most powerful healer. It'd provide a job that doesn't do anything but heal. We horrible numbers-obsessed elitist optimizers would have to concede that it provides the strongest benefit and we only refuse to play it due to preference. Plus it allows anyone who plays it to constantly tell everyone around them that they're better, exalted creatures more enlightened than the people who don't like simplistic jobs and it's even tied to a job gauge! I know the randomized catchphrases would draw some flack, maybe a future update could put them on optional separate buttons.

Then we can have the dream: the Five Healer Model. The Pure Healer can be the absolute best one numbers-wise. The rest of us will have to brainstorm ideas for ruining the other four jobs with like, engagement and choices and too many buttons. Horrible, I know. But I'm willing to give it a shot.

[AmiableApkallu]

If only, for ONE post, you could actually be a truthful and rational person. Just for one.

Thy wish has been granted: White Mage Attraction.

Seriously, though, I didn't reread all 77 comments in detail just now, but the entire thread is a good trip down memory lane, and I'm amused by who all commented and what they said.

[Azuri]

*best idea ever but it takes too much space in a quote*

Then we can have the dream: the Five Healer Model. The Pure Healer can be the absolute best one numbers-wise. The rest of us will have to brainstorm ideas for ruining the other four jobs with like, engagement and choices and too many buttons. Horrible, I know. But I'm willing to give it a shot.

Finally a compromise worth getting behind. See, Renathras? This is the kind of deal might be worth making with your ilk, hesitant as I am to concede even the smallest amount of ground to you.

[ForsakenRoe]

I have a genie wish, but it's not exactly related to WHM.

this is the kind of compromise i can get behind, but the 'auto deduct 50%' worries me. what if they have a mechanic where you have to be full HP (eg someone got hit by the doom in dead ends), and the meter caps out and drains them back down by 50%? this would cause stress for the healer player. maybe a CD that makes the next gauge cap-out effect not trigger the HP removal, and just gives the buff?

[EaMett]

Have things really changed that much from the decline over 6.0? It feels like much of a muchness to me with the only change being that this savage actually needs competent healers, except it feels like large swathes of the competent healers gave up over the course of Shadowbringers and early Endwalker. (Obviously, I'm not all seeing on this one, but I am privy to a large portion of the high end raiding scene on Ragnarok as a member of Entropy and yeah, the last few years have been dire).

I started this tier late so I might be off here but I felt like this tier was more about having competent party mitigation than it was about having competent healers. (I'm willingly ignoring week 1 here because it was a bit of an anomaly, and I didn't get to experience it past the 3rd floor).
Like I said though, this was my first time tackling the tier slowly due to a variety of factors so it might've just been me experiencing a different gearing rate.

I will concur though with the sentiment that in the higher-tiered groups, most healers I've known on the Aether end have decided to swap roles since they weren't enjoying the current healers. And groups looking for healers had to lower their expectations and onboard healers whose skills didn't necessarily match the party.
The healers I do know who are sticking with it are mostly doing it because they enjoy their statics and nobody can find competent replacements for them. RIP. They definitely play anything but healer outside of static duties.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of healers in PF is a combination of higher-tiered healers not wanting to heal outside of obligations (as opposed to PFing on healer like they might have done before), and the healers currently left feeling anxious about PFing this tier so not bothering. I also wouldn't be surprised if SE took note of that last point and made future content easier again; Wouldn't put it past them.