General Healer Discussion [The Echo Chamber]

[ty_taurus]

So making Dia stack to 60 seconds would add even more thoughtful gameplay?

Not asking in snark, just curious.

Actually, I don't think this works for DoTs, nor do I think it would ultimately give you the experience you're looking for. The issue is because of damage calculations. DoTs snapshot the user's current state, including during buff windows, so you have to ask the question: "What happens when you overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one to extend the duration?" What would most likely happen for balance reasons would be the DoT potency would update the moment you extended it, meaning that optimal use of your DoT would be probably as rigid as it is now. You'd want to double DoT during buff windows, then let the full 60 seconds deplete before refreshing again at the 1 and 1.5 minute markers, then double DoT again during the next buff window.

If we undid the 2 minute windows and went back to the 1, 2, 3, 6 structure, this actually becomes more rigid as you're basically always building up a 60 second DoT with 2 casts rather than 1 because every minute is a buff window of some kind.

If that means you feel like you have to pay attention to your DoTs less frequently at least, then perhaps that's not a bad thing, but the effect of Snapshotting is not explained to players, and it would silently punish players who didn't realize how the snapshotting works and were just casually maintaining their DoT whenever feels right to them.

[ForsakenRoe]

"What happens when you overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one to extend the duration?"

while im still here, im pretty sure BRD actually shows exactly what would happen, it'd remove the buffs of the snapshotted version and replace it with an extended, unsnapshotted version, meaning exactly as you say, the 'optimal strat' is to double Dia in raidbuffs and then ignore it for an entire minute.

[Renathras]

Actually, I don't think this works for DoTs,...

I tend to find it dubious when a claim is made about two things that are mechanically similar, where one is heralded as nuanced and complex and the other...not. Yes, they aren't the same, but they're similar enough if Storm's Eye being easier to manage is somehow more complex (that...isn't possible), then Dia should be the same.

Though, honestly, it would end up more like Regrowth for Resto Druids in WoW. I think it was Regrowth... In WoW, Resto Druids had (may still, but haven't played in years) a HoT that stacked to 3. Refreshing it before the duration expired would refresh all three stacks. So the gameplay was basically to always clip it just before it went away, that way you keep the mega tick healing, generally on the main tank. It was a maintenance plate spinning, but I actually found it enjoyable. If Dia worked this way, you wouldn't be "overwriting it". You cast Dia under buff windows and then you make sure to refresh it to keep it up. As long as you do so, it would maintain the snapshot. So you couldn't "overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one". It would keep the buffed potency as long as it didn't fall off.

And if it DID fall off, you'd be applying an unbuffed one. The exception to this rule (like with shields) is that a stronger one would overwrite it. So if you dropped your buffed Dia (even with the 60 sec generous window to reapply) and had to reapply it outside of buff windows, this WOULD be a DPS loss, but you could reestablish the buffed version in the next buff window.

This would raise the skill ceiling and give more nuance to the Job's "core rotation" (stuff you guys want) as you work to maximize keeping buffed Dia on the target, and with skill expression in the sense of failing to do this would cause a lower DPS Dia and then having to reapply it early once the next buff window hit to recapture the buffed snapshot. AT THE WORST, it would be no easier than now, and because dropping a Dia would be more punishing than now, it would grant a higher skill ceiling, even while having a more generous reapply duration.

It would also mean you don't HAVE to apply it to 60 seconds right away in any buff window. You could ride the edge playing as if it only had 30 sec like today if you wanted, as long as you didn't let it drop off.

The best part is - regarding your final paragraph - since the more powerful always overwrites the weaker one, it would mean even players uninformed on snapshotting would benefit from good play (100% uptime) because at some point their Dia would be refreshed in the buff windows and, keeping it up for the fight, they'd get that boosted damage. So this is a win for everyone, even the uninformed.

Fair?

EDIT:

my point is that WHM SCH and AST had a mile taken from them in the SB-SHB transition, but your stance seems to be 'ok SCH and AST can have their mile back, but only if WHM's mile stays confiscated'

I've said this dozens of times here before, so I know you've seen it - WHM didn't have a mile taken away from SB to ShB. It actually got BETTER in ShB. WHM traded Aero 3 for Misery and 30 sec Regen HoTs (Medica 2 and I think Regen used to be 30 sec) vs 18 sec DoTs into 30 sec DoTs and 18/15 sec HoTs. There was no mile confiscated. SB to ShB WHM was, at worst, a side-grade, and a good one since SB WHM was in the worst place it's been in the game in terms of identity, functionality vs encounter mechanics, and the meta. Even SCH and AST players who never touched WHM were talking at the time about how bad it was.

So I'm not saying "give AST and SCH their good stuff back but don't give WHM their good stuff back". I'm saying "give AST and SCH their good stuff back - because they were actually GOOD in SB - and leave WHM alone because it's actually BETTER now than it was in SB".

As for the SGE thing - thing is, look at all those other changes. I'm saying leave WHM as it is. Your counter is "what if SGE was that instead?"

What that means is we would have to change SGE into WHM. No Kardia, change Addersgall to Lilies, change its GCD heals/add GCD heals for Medica 2, Cure 3, etc etc, give it Holy, and so on. That is, copy WHM's kit exactly as it is today since that's the kit I'm arguing we keep. So we'd have to take WHM as it is in the game, copy all its abilities, replace them with SGE icons and SGE names, but make them do what the WHM versions do today, strip its oGCD kit and Kardia system, etc.

...and now, in addition to having a TON more work when we could just leave WHM as it is, we've now pissed off all the SGE players that love SGE as it is today because it's got a somewhat distinct gameplay style to them. So now you've made even more people mad and done a ton of extra work for no gain.

As for "have your cake and eat it, too", I'm trying to be charitable and nice and not just say "you want to selfishly have all the healers to yourself and callously screw anyone else". I'm trying to be a bit more polite and less attacky - because even if in defense, apparently my attacks are the only ones that get called out here.

As to WoW:

If Blizzard wasn't a toxic company these days?

I also hate WoW's art style and always have, and I don't care much for its story. I also have no friends that play WoW. And FFXIV already has Jobs that play the way I like to play. Not to mention I'd have to buy a new game/expansions that I don't have and pay a second sub fee to a toxic company. Collectively given all that, why would I switch? I do agree in a way it might be more up my alley, which is why I'm watching Pantheon and, to a point, Ashes of Creation with some interest.

I especially like that both games are going for a Quaterny instead of Trinity, with Bard and Enchanter in Pantheon and Bard in Ashes of Creation as full on Support/Control role classes. Pantheon, in particular, seems to want to be an old school MMO with a modern coat of graphical paint and some updated systems, and looks like they plan to have three healers - "main heal" focused Clerics, support focused Shaman (buffs/debuffs), and damage focused Druids (passable heals married to a DPS kit), as well as having the Bard and Enchanter which are two flavors of Support, with Bard likely being more about party buffs and Enchanter more about debuffs and crowd control vs the enemy. I feel like a system like that - which is arguably what I'm asking for with the "Four Healers" idea for FFXIV - is best since it allows everyone to filter to the one they like best. For example, I'd probably play a Cleric in Pantheon while folks like you might find Shaman, Druid, or even Bard (or even Enchanter) more fun. But in a game that actually has them all as class options to pick, we all get to pick the one we like and all get to be meaningful and useful party members, standing side by side and playing our way together.

Everybody wins.

That's what I want for us in FFXIV, too, albeit on a less overarching scale (since FFXIV won't make Support it's own fully supported role...which means sub-roles of those types are a bit more tricky, particularly the debuffer Control aspect)

Oh, I know Aero 3 was a gain on single target. I didn't say it wasn't. I said at the time, most people thought Aero 3 was for AOE. It's been a while, but I remember someone chewing me out in - I think it was HW - for using Aero 3 on a single target saying not to do it because it was for AOE only. I'm not saying that was RIGHT, just that it was a more widespread belief at the time. ARR/HW had a lot of weirdness like that where players didn't realize how DoTs worked so they didn't realize how good they were until parses and theorycrafters started actually doing numbers on enemies and target dummies and figured out how they work. The tooltips didn't then - and don't now - say the potency of the DoT is "per tick" not "over the duration".

Oh, and as for the "leave 1" vs "leave 1-2", I could explain it, but...yeah. You don't care, so what's the point?

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EDIT due to daily post limit:

Ah, another beautiful opportunity to expose the BLATANT HYPOCRISY. (see, I can do the caps and bold thing too)

For someone who rants about others not reading your posts you have not been doing much reading yourself, Renathras. Otherwise you would have found out that the buffs are actually snapshot on every refresh. Every use of skill. Every time you press the button. There is no way to make a single buff snapshot benefit for an infinite durartion. But somehow you arrived to the exact opposite conclusion which happens... to suit your narrative better.

How curious...

Thank you for finally proving something to me I was uncertain of for a while...I appreciate that new certainty. Even if it was accidental, thank you.

If you read my post, you might understand I was proposing a change to where the stronger version overwrote the weaker version. So yet again I must admonish you:

If you actually read my posts instead of making up things about them, we might actually have a good discussion.

Also regarding your "gocha": You needing to use bolded caps doesn't apply. As I said in that other reply, I have to do it because you don't read my posts - something you've proven yet again with this reply of yours - but you don't need to do it because I actually do read your posts. To the point I often take them line by line, which I've been chided for doing, but is the proof I actually do not only read them, but read every line of them.

.

Serious talk:

If Dia did work that way - could be refreshed, stacks up to 60 seconds, each refresh extended the current potency if it was stronger, if a stronger was applied it would overwrite the weaker (this is literally how shields in this game work right now, and HoTs too, so it's not like this is somehow impossible): Would this be better?

Remember: As much as I hate DoTs, it's because I hate busywork DoTs - I've said before DoTs with interesting interactions I like more. One of my past proposals, lest you forget, was to make it where Dia (or Combust or whatever) could stack to 3 and refreshing it maintained all stacks. You guys poo-poo'd that, but the point is, I'm not against ALL DoTs. If a DoT has some interesting interactions - and to me "interesting interaction" is literally anything that isn't just "place on target, refresh on CD, maybe capture under buff windows" - then I'm not as opposed to it. Hence why I said above (or in one of the other threads) Glare causing a Bane effect to spread Dia I would be okay with since that's SOMETHING of an interesting interaction and doesn't require any additional button bloat for the bargain.

[Azuri]

The best part is - regarding your final paragraph - since the more powerful always overwrites the weaker one, it would mean even players uninformed on snapshotting would benefit from good play (100% uptime) because at some point their Dia would be refreshed in the buff windows and, keeping it up for the fight, they'd get that boosted damage. So this is a win for everyone, even the uninformed.

Ah, another beautiful opportunity to expose the BLATANT HYPOCRISY. (see, I can do the caps and bold thing too)

For someone who rants about others not reading your posts you have not been doing much reading yourself, Renathras. Otherwise you would have found out that the buffs are actually snapshot on every refresh. Every use of skill. Every time you press the button. There is no way to make a single buff snapshot benefit for an infinite durartion. But somehow you arrived to the exact opposite conclusion which happens... to suit your narrative better.

How curious...