General Healer Discussion [The Echo Chamber]

[Renathras]

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Okay, because people get onto me (not anyone else, but just me) for writing long posts, I’m going to TRY to make this shorter. It may seem curt (also why I tend to not make short posts), but it’s not meant to be harsh, just to address your points while being somewhat brief. And it still won't be short, but that's just because you said a lot and some need at least a little detail to rebut.

You’re wrong. Stop white knighting. Her insult was accusing me of citing fallacies as sophistry.

You’re wrong again. You guys appeal to consensus all the freakin’ time. You can’t pretend it’s beyond the pale now to point out you don’t have it.

You’re wrong AGAIN. I’m not advocating for WHM to cast Glare and nothing else. If you guys want me to stop beating this dead horse, stop trotting it out over and over again!

You’re wrong HERE because this is the far worse thing. To make SGE “the idiot proof healer”, here is what we’d have to do: Remove Eukrasia Dosis and Kardia. Convert Eukrasia Prognosis and Eukrasia Diagnosis into Medica 2 and Cure 2. Convert Durochole to Solace, Ixo to deal damage as Assize, Taruo would have to be turned into Aquaveil, the game would lose the enjoyable Kerachole as it’s turned into Asylum, Toxicon would need to build from Addersgall use, the Job would need to start at level 1 and have a class created so it can start as that class, we’d need 6 Class quests and a further 20 or so Job Quests all created and implemented through all the expansions, Pneuma would need to be changed into Cure 3, and Plegma removed. Contrast WHM being this healer for the game which would require: Changing nothing and not altering anyone’s playstyle, class staring levels, or existing abilities. Which of those makes more sense?

The reason I advocate for WHM to be this is because it’s already this and would require no changes to the game, the Job, the CNJ class, nor for players already playing it. To make SGE into this would require completely changing the Job, adding a Class, tons of quests, and basically every ability that isn’t non-Eukrasian Diagnosis and Prognosis. If you can’t see why that’s the larger hurdle to jump, I cannot help you.

You’re wrong yet again. I don’t know if it’s your skill speed, but I tend to come up on Path/Eye when it’s roughly even 30 sec times. MOREOVER, because it can stack to 60 seconds, it’s not “in 3 GCDs” it’s “anytime in the next 30 seconds I just end a combo with Eye”. Usually I think about it when I’ve already hit 1-2, so it’s actually “next GCD”, making it no different than Dia. And it’s easier to manage than Dia because you can stack it twice. That makes things ridiculously easy compared to things with a 30 sec hardcap. The 1-2 is busywork. That’s why so many players want all melee and tanks to go the PvP route where the 1-2-3 combos are just a single button. A majority of players in this game do NOT see it as interesting or nuanced gameplay, no matter how much you want to sell it as such. BUT: I have proposed before that one of our healers have a 1-2-3 gameplay rotation. I wouldn’t mind that being WHM if we remove the DoT and just make it like MCH’s 1-2-3 with no frills. You don’t want that, either. Though I wouldn’t be opposed to a Rhizomata type ability that gives Lilies. Granted, that’s just more homogenization, but that would be the Infuriate parallel. And you use Infuriate on CD, every second one is in buff windows. This is what Presence of Mind does, it’s just on a 2 min CD to begin with. If PoM let you use three Miseries without charge, that would be fun and I’d be fine with that. But I feel like it would be bad for the game and Job because it would shove WHM even more into that stupid 2 min model that everyone knows is bad and doesn’t want more of, wouldn’t it?

Path and Eye don’t need a Heavy Swing and Maim – I’d love that! Yes, let’s do it. You don’t get Fellcleave by Infuriating once per minute, you get it by using Bloodwhetting and/or Nascent Flash 3 times with a 20 sec CD. Orogeny also would throw out a large party heal and restore Beast Gauge (MP). But yeah, that sounds pretty fun, actually. Ship it!

I do agree that Misery stacking to 2 would be nice, though. They could make at least the first two parts of the “bloom” still go even if you have one already bloomed. Though here I’d expect you guys to complain that’s making the Job “easier” and “less punishing” since players wouldn’t have to worry about a loss by casting a Solace/Rapture while Misery is already up.

Yes, it’s not exactly “a thing WHM has to consider” – thank you for making my point! – this was the point I as making to the person I replied to: That isn’t unique to WAR, that’s something basically every Job, including WHM, already does, so cannot be raised as a point of distinction.

Yes, once per 30 seconds. Which makes it more punishing than Storm’s Eye, which can be cast twice within any given 30 second timeframe and give the WAR extra time and flexibility. Dia is more difficult/challenging/hard than Storm’s Eye is.

“to properly play it” – that’s literally what I said. Why are you contesting something I outright said that was noting what the other poster said about WAR is also true of WHM?

Yes, what one person considers extra busywork others might see as something it isn’t – nuance and skill expression – but that’s why we have FOUR healers and I’ve already said make THREE OF THEM have your nonexistent “skill expression”. I will point out yet again that a large portion of the playerbase has repeatedly asked for the 1-2-3 PvP treatment, meaning most people do not, in fact, see it as nuance and skill expression and, in fact, see it as unnecessary busywork.

“Should we remove” – People have literally asked for that, yes. I personally have no strong opinion on it because I tend to not play DPS, so I’ll defer to the people that deal with it every day that have asked for it for something like 4 years now.

You’re still wrong – WAR has Upheaval and Orogeny, but only one is used in a given fight. Having another Assize, why not just give Assize a second charge instead? That would be far more useful and not add unnecessary complexity for complexity’s sake. You mention Aquaveil then even point out in badmouthing it how it’s useful and does something nothing else in the kit does. Indeed, Exaltation is really the only one that might not have been needed. Protraction allows SCH’s to amplify Adlo shields and has good synergy with Deployment Tactics and introduces actual skill expression (that thing you always talk about wanting in the dps kits, but seem not to care about being in the healing kits), meaning it was a good addition to its kit. Aquaveil is a fantastic addition to WHM’s kit since it’s actually WHM getting a button that doesn’t step on the toes of an ability they already had. Aquaveil and Lilybell both are actual new things WHM was lacking before (a strong single target mitigation and a powerful reactive “waves of attack” heal). As for Aero 3:

I hate it when people are “stuck in the past” and “can’t let it go”. Aero 3 added nothing to WHM gameplay. In practice, you’d cast it once the tank gathered mobs AFTER 3x Holy casts, then resume Holy spam. It added nothing to the gameplay. At the time, most people and guides said it was a single target DPS loss, so it wasn’t used in single target fights. And I’m already amply on record as hating DoTs. Adding ANOTHER to EVERY healer Job is just dumb. No thank you. This is also like people desperate to add SOMETHING called Cleric Stance because they’re married to the term. Literally: Just let it go. WHM is not “four buttons behind”. It has more than any of the casters and all of the Ranged Physical. As I’ve said before, 30 buttons is the most that Jobs IN GENERAL should have, since that completely fills two crossbar sets (controller players) when Sprint and LB are added, and 30 is a LOT OF BUTTONS. There’s no good argument that all Jobs need 34+ buttons. It’s fine if some have that many (cough-PLD-cough), but WHM is the only healer (before SGE) that did not pass that number. It actually has exactly as many buttons as it should, meaning any new buttons need to remove an existing button. 29 is actually the ideal (extra slot for potion in fights or mount in the field), so we actually need to lose one.

“we already have wild swings” – Yeah, but due to Human issues. Throw in RNG on top of that and it gets worse. People in the tank and dps forums are talking all the time about how “feelsbad” it is when they use abilities like Double Down in raid buffs and don’t get any crits out of them; where the difference between one run and another is “did you get luck with crits” even if they do their rotation and correctly perform mechanics the exact same way both times, but one way gets them 5-10% more damage. Now throw in all you just said about unexpected healing/deaths and that just makes it even worse.

There are reasons people pick one Job over another. That is absolutely true. And harder and easier are subjective, this is also true…but when people are SELF-defining these Jobs as easier, and picking them, putting 2 and 2 together isn’t hard. You have to be trying not to see it in order not to see it.

Correlation does not equal causation – this is true – but causation always includes correlation. The point here is that the data we do have, at the very least contests your position. The obvious solution is to leave one healer as it is to ensure that the people that like it have an option. And as I said above, WHM is the only logical choice to do so with.

People like you won’t compromise because (a) you all want to have your cake and eat it, too, selfishly taking all the healer Jobs to yourselves and refusing to share, and (b) I suspect you all know, as I do, that you’re wrong, and that if we had even ONE simple healer with the others all complex, the playerbase would flock to the simple healer proving you are both wrong and in the minority, and that’s something you can’t stand, so you don’t want people to have the option where you might be proven wrong.

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The ”middle ground” IS to make 2-1 healers more complex, 1 in kind of a middle ground, and 1-2 leave as they are now.

That IS the compromise position.

It's the position you and the rest are outright rejecting.

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ya'll have really got to stop responding to Ren's post with "okay but what if we suddenly changed tank or dps rotations to be just like healers, huh?? wouldn't that just suck and be awful and wouldn't you hate it???" because his post history should make it obvious his answer is always going to be a resounding "No, I'd love it!" and just forces that particular sticking point to be repeated over and over and not really do anything other than annoy everyone involved.

Absolutely correct. Until people recognize that some people like non-convoluted - I've been charitably using the word complex vs simple, but convoluted vs straightforward is more apt - gameplay, they just will be arguing with a brick wall, because they fail to recognize they're stating a point as somehow fact that clearly is not.

What we should instead be pointing out is that, yeah, there are some jobs with light rotations that are *theoretically* very similar to WHM As Is if we're only really looking at number of actions... the frequency and variety of the button presses makes a hell of a lot of difference to most people. This is why people get so stuck on bitching about the Glare spam. It's why people keep going "no, WAR really isn't like WHM at all!" There's a very different tactile feel to doing long stretches of hitting one button primarily while having a couple others that you occasionally toss on with moderate timers between them, and having a small amount of buttons that you're frequently cycling between. There's also more interplay between WARs buttons compared to WHMs, which does just a tiny bit more to keep your brain engaged, too.

And this I also agree with. I don't think the solution is more actions or DoTs, I believe it's more repurposing the existing actions to achieve a more varied effect. But I will note again many people have been asking for 1-2-3s to be turned into 1 button, which means a lot of people actually would prefer the 1 button business. The problem is what to do that ISN'T just a glorified 1-2. RDM's Dualcast is effectively a 1-2. Verthunder/Aero are DPS gains but only when instant cast and not hardcast, and Dualcast creates a 1-2 situation. It has the added steps of having two paths (sorta like MNK) and an annoying Proc system that wouldn't work with a healer, though I've proposed myself a SGE system that's effectively Verfire/stone/aero/thunder as a rotation style. Note that RDM isn't focused on healing and has no DoTs. But something like every third Glare doing something like triggering an empowered thundercloud Dia (this would remove the RNG since it's just 3x Glare + Dia no matter what) might be more interesting. Or just removing Dia's DoT and making it a direct cast spell that does lower damage (like Ruin 2) but every 3rd Glare OR 3rd GCD heal cast empowers it to do 2-3x Glare's potency would be kind of neat, imo. I'd also absolutely love Holy benefitting from this in some way and being changed to be like Cure 3 where you can cast it on a target within 25y OR cast it on yourself/no target where it would work like it does today. This would allow it to be put into the single target rotation somewhere (maybe casting "Dia 4" empowers a Holy immediately cast after it) and be useful in boss fights even if the WHM is forced out of melee by spread mechanics or the like.

See? There are changes to WHM I'm open to, provided they don't involve another DoT, Aero 3, Cleric Stance, Seraph Strike, shorter DoT CDs, etc, but that would make the rotation a bit more interesting and even more versatile. The simplest one would be to make Dia like Ruin 2 but that turns into Ruin 4 every third GCD cast (either Glare or GCD heals), which incidentally would make GCD heals more useful and Solace/Rapture DPS gains.

Storm's Eye's flexibility actually adds even more thoughtful gameplay

So making Dia stack to 60 seconds would add even more thoughtful gameplay?

Not asking in snark, just curious.

in general I'd like Aero III as something that extends the DoT and spreads it to surrounding enemies instead of being its own DoT,

Why make another button for this? We could just make Holy or Misery or assize or even GLARE do this (giving it a purpose in AOE fights). And Aero 3 wasn't instant, I don't believe. Come to think of it, Glare having an "additional effect" of "Spreads Dia (if on target) to all nearby enemies within 8y. Duration: Remaining duration of target's Dia debuff" would be fine with me, too. I hate DoTs in general and most AOE packs in dungeons die in 25-35 seconds making this generally useless, but it would be neat for DoTting the second pack of the 2 pack pull (where I usually go into Holy spam instead) if I could smack a Dia on a target, hit it with a Glare, then go into Holy spam and have the Dots spread (and refreshed on the first pack at that point). That would kind of be a neat little trait, actually.

[ForsakenRoe]

everything

at first i was thinking 'no way could someone want WAR to be even more simplified' when i made those joking 'change suggestions' so dripping with sarcasm, wow is my worldview upended

you know the saying 'give them an inch and they'll take a mile'? my point is that WHM SCH and AST had a mile taken from them in the SB-SHB transition, but your stance seems to be 'ok SCH and AST can have their mile back, but only if WHM's mile stays confiscated' like they've been grounded for bad behaviour. 'friendly to newbies' doesnt mean it HAS to start at level 1, like look at Demon Hunter in WOW, it used to start at 98 in Legion when it first came out, got to 100 by doing the starter area, then just had 10 levels to go, to get to max level, and it's as new player friendly as it came. Sage starting at 70 would not have to mean it cant be the 'new healer friendly' design, doubly so considering that we can have solo instances specifically designed to teach the player what the job's skills do. your 'compromise' stance has now shifted from 'leave 1 as ungabunga' to 'leave 1-2 as ungabunga', so now i guess you're gonna start compromising with your own stance since noone else here will? getting hit by 'have your cake and eat it too' always makes me laugh, like what the hell else am i gonna do with a cake, put it on a pedestal and display it like a piece of modern art? waste of good cake, anyway i think im done writing essays now that i understand just how pointless trying to convince each other really is, so i'm gonna just go back to lurking and contributing to the healer shortage by not being in PF outside of raidlogging. gotta say preservation evoker is looking kinda interesting so far...

on which note, have you considered playing classic WOW? i'm pretty sure mages still have like 2 button rotations in Wrath, seems like it'd be right up your alley

oh yeh edit: aero 3 was 100% used in single target, you can go look up the old tooltip on gamerescape, the data is still there, it was apparently 370 total potency, compared to stone 4 which was 280? at the time, i dont remember exactly but i know for sure it never breached 300 so yeh, also you wouldnt cast 3 holys back to back, you'd do holy, aero3, holy holy because that way you wouldn't clip 1.5 seconds of the first holy's stun duration off by refreshing it early, and you'd get the aero dot ticking sooner, while the enemy still had HP to tick off. idk what guides you were looking at but i dont think they were the ones i saw, and if, like in this vid here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MGGYnq3JvA, aero 3 is good enough for 'world first clear' teams to use in single target, i think i did an alright decision in using it in single target too. directly contrasting my AWFUL decision in choosing to main WHM at the start of SB

[ty_taurus]

So making Dia stack to 60 seconds would add even more thoughtful gameplay?

Not asking in snark, just curious.

Actually, I don't think this works for DoTs, nor do I think it would ultimately give you the experience you're looking for. The issue is because of damage calculations. DoTs snapshot the user's current state, including during buff windows, so you have to ask the question: "What happens when you overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one to extend the duration?" What would most likely happen for balance reasons would be the DoT potency would update the moment you extended it, meaning that optimal use of your DoT would be probably as rigid as it is now. You'd want to double DoT during buff windows, then let the full 60 seconds deplete before refreshing again at the 1 and 1.5 minute markers, then double DoT again during the next buff window.

If we undid the 2 minute windows and went back to the 1, 2, 3, 6 structure, this actually becomes more rigid as you're basically always building up a 60 second DoT with 2 casts rather than 1 because every minute is a buff window of some kind.

If that means you feel like you have to pay attention to your DoTs less frequently at least, then perhaps that's not a bad thing, but the effect of Snapshotting is not explained to players, and it would silently punish players who didn't realize how the snapshotting works and were just casually maintaining their DoT whenever feels right to them.

[ForsakenRoe]

"What happens when you overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one to extend the duration?"

while im still here, im pretty sure BRD actually shows exactly what would happen, it'd remove the buffs of the snapshotted version and replace it with an extended, unsnapshotted version, meaning exactly as you say, the 'optimal strat' is to double Dia in raidbuffs and then ignore it for an entire minute.

[Renathras]

Actually, I don't think this works for DoTs,...

I tend to find it dubious when a claim is made about two things that are mechanically similar, where one is heralded as nuanced and complex and the other...not. Yes, they aren't the same, but they're similar enough if Storm's Eye being easier to manage is somehow more complex (that...isn't possible), then Dia should be the same.

Though, honestly, it would end up more like Regrowth for Resto Druids in WoW. I think it was Regrowth... In WoW, Resto Druids had (may still, but haven't played in years) a HoT that stacked to 3. Refreshing it before the duration expired would refresh all three stacks. So the gameplay was basically to always clip it just before it went away, that way you keep the mega tick healing, generally on the main tank. It was a maintenance plate spinning, but I actually found it enjoyable. If Dia worked this way, you wouldn't be "overwriting it". You cast Dia under buff windows and then you make sure to refresh it to keep it up. As long as you do so, it would maintain the snapshot. So you couldn't "overwrite a buffed Dia DoT with an unbuffed one". It would keep the buffed potency as long as it didn't fall off.

And if it DID fall off, you'd be applying an unbuffed one. The exception to this rule (like with shields) is that a stronger one would overwrite it. So if you dropped your buffed Dia (even with the 60 sec generous window to reapply) and had to reapply it outside of buff windows, this WOULD be a DPS loss, but you could reestablish the buffed version in the next buff window.

This would raise the skill ceiling and give more nuance to the Job's "core rotation" (stuff you guys want) as you work to maximize keeping buffed Dia on the target, and with skill expression in the sense of failing to do this would cause a lower DPS Dia and then having to reapply it early once the next buff window hit to recapture the buffed snapshot. AT THE WORST, it would be no easier than now, and because dropping a Dia would be more punishing than now, it would grant a higher skill ceiling, even while having a more generous reapply duration.

It would also mean you don't HAVE to apply it to 60 seconds right away in any buff window. You could ride the edge playing as if it only had 30 sec like today if you wanted, as long as you didn't let it drop off.

The best part is - regarding your final paragraph - since the more powerful always overwrites the weaker one, it would mean even players uninformed on snapshotting would benefit from good play (100% uptime) because at some point their Dia would be refreshed in the buff windows and, keeping it up for the fight, they'd get that boosted damage. So this is a win for everyone, even the uninformed.

Fair?

EDIT:

my point is that WHM SCH and AST had a mile taken from them in the SB-SHB transition, but your stance seems to be 'ok SCH and AST can have their mile back, but only if WHM's mile stays confiscated'

I've said this dozens of times here before, so I know you've seen it - WHM didn't have a mile taken away from SB to ShB. It actually got BETTER in ShB. WHM traded Aero 3 for Misery and 30 sec Regen HoTs (Medica 2 and I think Regen used to be 30 sec) vs 18 sec DoTs into 30 sec DoTs and 18/15 sec HoTs. There was no mile confiscated. SB to ShB WHM was, at worst, a side-grade, and a good one since SB WHM was in the worst place it's been in the game in terms of identity, functionality vs encounter mechanics, and the meta. Even SCH and AST players who never touched WHM were talking at the time about how bad it was.

So I'm not saying "give AST and SCH their good stuff back but don't give WHM their good stuff back". I'm saying "give AST and SCH their good stuff back - because they were actually GOOD in SB - and leave WHM alone because it's actually BETTER now than it was in SB".

As for the SGE thing - thing is, look at all those other changes. I'm saying leave WHM as it is. Your counter is "what if SGE was that instead?"

What that means is we would have to change SGE into WHM. No Kardia, change Addersgall to Lilies, change its GCD heals/add GCD heals for Medica 2, Cure 3, etc etc, give it Holy, and so on. That is, copy WHM's kit exactly as it is today since that's the kit I'm arguing we keep. So we'd have to take WHM as it is in the game, copy all its abilities, replace them with SGE icons and SGE names, but make them do what the WHM versions do today, strip its oGCD kit and Kardia system, etc.

...and now, in addition to having a TON more work when we could just leave WHM as it is, we've now pissed off all the SGE players that love SGE as it is today because it's got a somewhat distinct gameplay style to them. So now you've made even more people mad and done a ton of extra work for no gain.

As for "have your cake and eat it, too", I'm trying to be charitable and nice and not just say "you want to selfishly have all the healers to yourself and callously screw anyone else". I'm trying to be a bit more polite and less attacky - because even if in defense, apparently my attacks are the only ones that get called out here.

As to WoW:

If Blizzard wasn't a toxic company these days?

I also hate WoW's art style and always have, and I don't care much for its story. I also have no friends that play WoW. And FFXIV already has Jobs that play the way I like to play. Not to mention I'd have to buy a new game/expansions that I don't have and pay a second sub fee to a toxic company. Collectively given all that, why would I switch? I do agree in a way it might be more up my alley, which is why I'm watching Pantheon and, to a point, Ashes of Creation with some interest.

I especially like that both games are going for a Quaterny instead of Trinity, with Bard and Enchanter in Pantheon and Bard in Ashes of Creation as full on Support/Control role classes. Pantheon, in particular, seems to want to be an old school MMO with a modern coat of graphical paint and some updated systems, and looks like they plan to have three healers - "main heal" focused Clerics, support focused Shaman (buffs/debuffs), and damage focused Druids (passable heals married to a DPS kit), as well as having the Bard and Enchanter which are two flavors of Support, with Bard likely being more about party buffs and Enchanter more about debuffs and crowd control vs the enemy. I feel like a system like that - which is arguably what I'm asking for with the "Four Healers" idea for FFXIV - is best since it allows everyone to filter to the one they like best. For example, I'd probably play a Cleric in Pantheon while folks like you might find Shaman, Druid, or even Bard (or even Enchanter) more fun. But in a game that actually has them all as class options to pick, we all get to pick the one we like and all get to be meaningful and useful party members, standing side by side and playing our way together.

Everybody wins.

That's what I want for us in FFXIV, too, albeit on a less overarching scale (since FFXIV won't make Support it's own fully supported role...which means sub-roles of those types are a bit more tricky, particularly the debuffer Control aspect)

Oh, I know Aero 3 was a gain on single target. I didn't say it wasn't. I said at the time, most people thought Aero 3 was for AOE. It's been a while, but I remember someone chewing me out in - I think it was HW - for using Aero 3 on a single target saying not to do it because it was for AOE only. I'm not saying that was RIGHT, just that it was a more widespread belief at the time. ARR/HW had a lot of weirdness like that where players didn't realize how DoTs worked so they didn't realize how good they were until parses and theorycrafters started actually doing numbers on enemies and target dummies and figured out how they work. The tooltips didn't then - and don't now - say the potency of the DoT is "per tick" not "over the duration".

Oh, and as for the "leave 1" vs "leave 1-2", I could explain it, but...yeah. You don't care, so what's the point?

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EDIT due to daily post limit:

Ah, another beautiful opportunity to expose the BLATANT HYPOCRISY. (see, I can do the caps and bold thing too)

For someone who rants about others not reading your posts you have not been doing much reading yourself, Renathras. Otherwise you would have found out that the buffs are actually snapshot on every refresh. Every use of skill. Every time you press the button. There is no way to make a single buff snapshot benefit for an infinite durartion. But somehow you arrived to the exact opposite conclusion which happens... to suit your narrative better.

How curious...

Thank you for finally proving something to me I was uncertain of for a while...I appreciate that new certainty. Even if it was accidental, thank you.

If you read my post, you might understand I was proposing a change to where the stronger version overwrote the weaker version. So yet again I must admonish you:

If you actually read my posts instead of making up things about them, we might actually have a good discussion.

Also regarding your "gocha": You needing to use bolded caps doesn't apply. As I said in that other reply, I have to do it because you don't read my posts - something you've proven yet again with this reply of yours - but you don't need to do it because I actually do read your posts. To the point I often take them line by line, which I've been chided for doing, but is the proof I actually do not only read them, but read every line of them.

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Serious talk:

If Dia did work that way - could be refreshed, stacks up to 60 seconds, each refresh extended the current potency if it was stronger, if a stronger was applied it would overwrite the weaker (this is literally how shields in this game work right now, and HoTs too, so it's not like this is somehow impossible): Would this be better?

Remember: As much as I hate DoTs, it's because I hate busywork DoTs - I've said before DoTs with interesting interactions I like more. One of my past proposals, lest you forget, was to make it where Dia (or Combust or whatever) could stack to 3 and refreshing it maintained all stacks. You guys poo-poo'd that, but the point is, I'm not against ALL DoTs. If a DoT has some interesting interactions - and to me "interesting interaction" is literally anything that isn't just "place on target, refresh on CD, maybe capture under buff windows" - then I'm not as opposed to it. Hence why I said above (or in one of the other threads) Glare causing a Bane effect to spread Dia I would be okay with since that's SOMETHING of an interesting interaction and doesn't require any additional button bloat for the bargain.

[Azuri]

The best part is - regarding your final paragraph - since the more powerful always overwrites the weaker one, it would mean even players uninformed on snapshotting would benefit from good play (100% uptime) because at some point their Dia would be refreshed in the buff windows and, keeping it up for the fight, they'd get that boosted damage. So this is a win for everyone, even the uninformed.

Ah, another beautiful opportunity to expose the BLATANT HYPOCRISY. (see, I can do the caps and bold thing too)

For someone who rants about others not reading your posts you have not been doing much reading yourself, Renathras. Otherwise you would have found out that the buffs are actually snapshot on every refresh. Every use of skill. Every time you press the button. There is no way to make a single buff snapshot benefit for an infinite durartion. But somehow you arrived to the exact opposite conclusion which happens... to suit your narrative better.

How curious...