General Healer Discussion [The Echo Chamber]

[Renathras]

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Okay, because people get onto me (not anyone else, but just me) for writing long posts, I’m going to TRY to make this shorter. It may seem curt (also why I tend to not make short posts), but it’s not meant to be harsh, just to address your points while being somewhat brief. And it still won't be short, but that's just because you said a lot and some need at least a little detail to rebut.

You’re wrong. Stop white knighting. Her insult was accusing me of citing fallacies as sophistry.

You’re wrong again. You guys appeal to consensus all the freakin’ time. You can’t pretend it’s beyond the pale now to point out you don’t have it.

You’re wrong AGAIN. I’m not advocating for WHM to cast Glare and nothing else. If you guys want me to stop beating this dead horse, stop trotting it out over and over again!

You’re wrong HERE because this is the far worse thing. To make SGE “the idiot proof healer”, here is what we’d have to do: Remove Eukrasia Dosis and Kardia. Convert Eukrasia Prognosis and Eukrasia Diagnosis into Medica 2 and Cure 2. Convert Durochole to Solace, Ixo to deal damage as Assize, Taruo would have to be turned into Aquaveil, the game would lose the enjoyable Kerachole as it’s turned into Asylum, Toxicon would need to build from Addersgall use, the Job would need to start at level 1 and have a class created so it can start as that class, we’d need 6 Class quests and a further 20 or so Job Quests all created and implemented through all the expansions, Pneuma would need to be changed into Cure 3, and Plegma removed. Contrast WHM being this healer for the game which would require: Changing nothing and not altering anyone’s playstyle, class staring levels, or existing abilities. Which of those makes more sense?

The reason I advocate for WHM to be this is because it’s already this and would require no changes to the game, the Job, the CNJ class, nor for players already playing it. To make SGE into this would require completely changing the Job, adding a Class, tons of quests, and basically every ability that isn’t non-Eukrasian Diagnosis and Prognosis. If you can’t see why that’s the larger hurdle to jump, I cannot help you.

You’re wrong yet again. I don’t know if it’s your skill speed, but I tend to come up on Path/Eye when it’s roughly even 30 sec times. MOREOVER, because it can stack to 60 seconds, it’s not “in 3 GCDs” it’s “anytime in the next 30 seconds I just end a combo with Eye”. Usually I think about it when I’ve already hit 1-2, so it’s actually “next GCD”, making it no different than Dia. And it’s easier to manage than Dia because you can stack it twice. That makes things ridiculously easy compared to things with a 30 sec hardcap. The 1-2 is busywork. That’s why so many players want all melee and tanks to go the PvP route where the 1-2-3 combos are just a single button. A majority of players in this game do NOT see it as interesting or nuanced gameplay, no matter how much you want to sell it as such. BUT: I have proposed before that one of our healers have a 1-2-3 gameplay rotation. I wouldn’t mind that being WHM if we remove the DoT and just make it like MCH’s 1-2-3 with no frills. You don’t want that, either. Though I wouldn’t be opposed to a Rhizomata type ability that gives Lilies. Granted, that’s just more homogenization, but that would be the Infuriate parallel. And you use Infuriate on CD, every second one is in buff windows. This is what Presence of Mind does, it’s just on a 2 min CD to begin with. If PoM let you use three Miseries without charge, that would be fun and I’d be fine with that. But I feel like it would be bad for the game and Job because it would shove WHM even more into that stupid 2 min model that everyone knows is bad and doesn’t want more of, wouldn’t it?

Path and Eye don’t need a Heavy Swing and Maim – I’d love that! Yes, let’s do it. You don’t get Fellcleave by Infuriating once per minute, you get it by using Bloodwhetting and/or Nascent Flash 3 times with a 20 sec CD. Orogeny also would throw out a large party heal and restore Beast Gauge (MP). But yeah, that sounds pretty fun, actually. Ship it!

I do agree that Misery stacking to 2 would be nice, though. They could make at least the first two parts of the “bloom” still go even if you have one already bloomed. Though here I’d expect you guys to complain that’s making the Job “easier” and “less punishing” since players wouldn’t have to worry about a loss by casting a Solace/Rapture while Misery is already up.

Yes, it’s not exactly “a thing WHM has to consider” – thank you for making my point! – this was the point I as making to the person I replied to: That isn’t unique to WAR, that’s something basically every Job, including WHM, already does, so cannot be raised as a point of distinction.

Yes, once per 30 seconds. Which makes it more punishing than Storm’s Eye, which can be cast twice within any given 30 second timeframe and give the WAR extra time and flexibility. Dia is more difficult/challenging/hard than Storm’s Eye is.

“to properly play it” – that’s literally what I said. Why are you contesting something I outright said that was noting what the other poster said about WAR is also true of WHM?

Yes, what one person considers extra busywork others might see as something it isn’t – nuance and skill expression – but that’s why we have FOUR healers and I’ve already said make THREE OF THEM have your nonexistent “skill expression”. I will point out yet again that a large portion of the playerbase has repeatedly asked for the 1-2-3 PvP treatment, meaning most people do not, in fact, see it as nuance and skill expression and, in fact, see it as unnecessary busywork.

“Should we remove” – People have literally asked for that, yes. I personally have no strong opinion on it because I tend to not play DPS, so I’ll defer to the people that deal with it every day that have asked for it for something like 4 years now.

You’re still wrong – WAR has Upheaval and Orogeny, but only one is used in a given fight. Having another Assize, why not just give Assize a second charge instead? That would be far more useful and not add unnecessary complexity for complexity’s sake. You mention Aquaveil then even point out in badmouthing it how it’s useful and does something nothing else in the kit does. Indeed, Exaltation is really the only one that might not have been needed. Protraction allows SCH’s to amplify Adlo shields and has good synergy with Deployment Tactics and introduces actual skill expression (that thing you always talk about wanting in the dps kits, but seem not to care about being in the healing kits), meaning it was a good addition to its kit. Aquaveil is a fantastic addition to WHM’s kit since it’s actually WHM getting a button that doesn’t step on the toes of an ability they already had. Aquaveil and Lilybell both are actual new things WHM was lacking before (a strong single target mitigation and a powerful reactive “waves of attack” heal). As for Aero 3:

I hate it when people are “stuck in the past” and “can’t let it go”. Aero 3 added nothing to WHM gameplay. In practice, you’d cast it once the tank gathered mobs AFTER 3x Holy casts, then resume Holy spam. It added nothing to the gameplay. At the time, most people and guides said it was a single target DPS loss, so it wasn’t used in single target fights. And I’m already amply on record as hating DoTs. Adding ANOTHER to EVERY healer Job is just dumb. No thank you. This is also like people desperate to add SOMETHING called Cleric Stance because they’re married to the term. Literally: Just let it go. WHM is not “four buttons behind”. It has more than any of the casters and all of the Ranged Physical. As I’ve said before, 30 buttons is the most that Jobs IN GENERAL should have, since that completely fills two crossbar sets (controller players) when Sprint and LB are added, and 30 is a LOT OF BUTTONS. There’s no good argument that all Jobs need 34+ buttons. It’s fine if some have that many (cough-PLD-cough), but WHM is the only healer (before SGE) that did not pass that number. It actually has exactly as many buttons as it should, meaning any new buttons need to remove an existing button. 29 is actually the ideal (extra slot for potion in fights or mount in the field), so we actually need to lose one.

“we already have wild swings” – Yeah, but due to Human issues. Throw in RNG on top of that and it gets worse. People in the tank and dps forums are talking all the time about how “feelsbad” it is when they use abilities like Double Down in raid buffs and don’t get any crits out of them; where the difference between one run and another is “did you get luck with crits” even if they do their rotation and correctly perform mechanics the exact same way both times, but one way gets them 5-10% more damage. Now throw in all you just said about unexpected healing/deaths and that just makes it even worse.

There are reasons people pick one Job over another. That is absolutely true. And harder and easier are subjective, this is also true…but when people are SELF-defining these Jobs as easier, and picking them, putting 2 and 2 together isn’t hard. You have to be trying not to see it in order not to see it.

Correlation does not equal causation – this is true – but causation always includes correlation. The point here is that the data we do have, at the very least contests your position. The obvious solution is to leave one healer as it is to ensure that the people that like it have an option. And as I said above, WHM is the only logical choice to do so with.

People like you won’t compromise because (a) you all want to have your cake and eat it, too, selfishly taking all the healer Jobs to yourselves and refusing to share, and (b) I suspect you all know, as I do, that you’re wrong, and that if we had even ONE simple healer with the others all complex, the playerbase would flock to the simple healer proving you are both wrong and in the minority, and that’s something you can’t stand, so you don’t want people to have the option where you might be proven wrong.

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The ”middle ground” IS to make 2-1 healers more complex, 1 in kind of a middle ground, and 1-2 leave as they are now.

That IS the compromise position.

It's the position you and the rest are outright rejecting.

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ya'll have really got to stop responding to Ren's post with "okay but what if we suddenly changed tank or dps rotations to be just like healers, huh?? wouldn't that just suck and be awful and wouldn't you hate it???" because his post history should make it obvious his answer is always going to be a resounding "No, I'd love it!" and just forces that particular sticking point to be repeated over and over and not really do anything other than annoy everyone involved.

Absolutely correct. Until people recognize that some people like non-convoluted - I've been charitably using the word complex vs simple, but convoluted vs straightforward is more apt - gameplay, they just will be arguing with a brick wall, because they fail to recognize they're stating a point as somehow fact that clearly is not.

What we should instead be pointing out is that, yeah, there are some jobs with light rotations that are *theoretically* very similar to WHM As Is if we're only really looking at number of actions... the frequency and variety of the button presses makes a hell of a lot of difference to most people. This is why people get so stuck on bitching about the Glare spam. It's why people keep going "no, WAR really isn't like WHM at all!" There's a very different tactile feel to doing long stretches of hitting one button primarily while having a couple others that you occasionally toss on with moderate timers between them, and having a small amount of buttons that you're frequently cycling between. There's also more interplay between WARs buttons compared to WHMs, which does just a tiny bit more to keep your brain engaged, too.

And this I also agree with. I don't think the solution is more actions or DoTs, I believe it's more repurposing the existing actions to achieve a more varied effect. But I will note again many people have been asking for 1-2-3s to be turned into 1 button, which means a lot of people actually would prefer the 1 button business. The problem is what to do that ISN'T just a glorified 1-2. RDM's Dualcast is effectively a 1-2. Verthunder/Aero are DPS gains but only when instant cast and not hardcast, and Dualcast creates a 1-2 situation. It has the added steps of having two paths (sorta like MNK) and an annoying Proc system that wouldn't work with a healer, though I've proposed myself a SGE system that's effectively Verfire/stone/aero/thunder as a rotation style. Note that RDM isn't focused on healing and has no DoTs. But something like every third Glare doing something like triggering an empowered thundercloud Dia (this would remove the RNG since it's just 3x Glare + Dia no matter what) might be more interesting. Or just removing Dia's DoT and making it a direct cast spell that does lower damage (like Ruin 2) but every 3rd Glare OR 3rd GCD heal cast empowers it to do 2-3x Glare's potency would be kind of neat, imo. I'd also absolutely love Holy benefitting from this in some way and being changed to be like Cure 3 where you can cast it on a target within 25y OR cast it on yourself/no target where it would work like it does today. This would allow it to be put into the single target rotation somewhere (maybe casting "Dia 4" empowers a Holy immediately cast after it) and be useful in boss fights even if the WHM is forced out of melee by spread mechanics or the like.

See? There are changes to WHM I'm open to, provided they don't involve another DoT, Aero 3, Cleric Stance, Seraph Strike, shorter DoT CDs, etc, but that would make the rotation a bit more interesting and even more versatile. The simplest one would be to make Dia like Ruin 2 but that turns into Ruin 4 every third GCD cast (either Glare or GCD heals), which incidentally would make GCD heals more useful and Solace/Rapture DPS gains.

Storm's Eye's flexibility actually adds even more thoughtful gameplay

So making Dia stack to 60 seconds would add even more thoughtful gameplay?

Not asking in snark, just curious.

in general I'd like Aero III as something that extends the DoT and spreads it to surrounding enemies instead of being its own DoT,

Why make another button for this? We could just make Holy or Misery or assize or even GLARE do this (giving it a purpose in AOE fights). And Aero 3 wasn't instant, I don't believe. Come to think of it, Glare having an "additional effect" of "Spreads Dia (if on target) to all nearby enemies within 8y. Duration: Remaining duration of target's Dia debuff" would be fine with me, too. I hate DoTs in general and most AOE packs in dungeons die in 25-35 seconds making this generally useless, but it would be neat for DoTting the second pack of the 2 pack pull (where I usually go into Holy spam instead) if I could smack a Dia on a target, hit it with a Glare, then go into Holy spam and have the Dots spread (and refreshed on the first pack at that point). That would kind of be a neat little trait, actually.