Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Dogempire]

Problem is when your farming DPS becomes really a less factor as everyone already likely has better gear, So at that point whats the point of even bringing black mage, like seriously, No one is going to care that black Mage does "1% more" then the other casters during a farm groups, this seriously makes no sense to me.

I don't think farm groups will really care as long as the person is good at their job and can pull good numbers, the only time jobs ever get locked out is when you have situations like with PLD or MCH or even RDM where the damage is so comparatively low that it's just objectively better to lock them out because a mediocre player on a different job within the same role will pull almost always better numbers (At least if we're speaking in terms of FFLogs because there are other factors)

Plus the tight damage checks (Less so now anyways) incentivize locking out the lowest performing jobs because it gives a lot more leeway for mistakes and such

[FireMage]

They aren't asking for 1% from top to bottom but for 0.4%/0.5% between each jobs.
As we have 11 DPS jobs, that would be 4.4%~5.5%.

A simple misunderstanding, it's okay.

The current problem is that most jobs only offers rDPS with some jobs creating grey lines of value due to their healing/mitigation.
This might be a solution, utility that could make the DPS differences between jobs insignificant.

Wrong. Mitron is literally calling for ~1% for all DPS. When that's what the tiers should be done around between tiers and having 5 of them

[Aikaal]

Oh look, you're putting words in my mouth. I never called for a SMN nerf, I merely said it would be at the bottom with proper balance. Go harass someone else, troll

I'm pretty sure I could find many posts where you were wrong. To simply put, you're a RDM purist that only care about RDM.

Ah yeah, this.



Remember this reply? There's a reason it has 15 likes. You did mention that, I read it properly but your take was still really bad.

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

You're making really bad jokes when you say that and it's no wonder people don't take you seriously.

But I will add facts into this conversation with actual evidences that y'all need to understand complexity involves the fight directly. Back in Stormblood, I was a Melee DPS. When I would get downtime.

Here is a video of a week 1 clear of a DRG PoV. I've put the timestamp to point my point. https://youtu.be/jISBDvFG3S4?t=73 Look at how tiny the hitbox is and look. Hello World is basically High Concept. Notice how the fight is still going and you still have to DPS? Notice how this Dragoon is forced to take the L and disengage and use his backflip to get back into the fight faster? He's still second DPS and that's taking into account the BRD is doing 5% more due to Piercing Debuff from the Dragoon. During that time, the tax to help Melee was valid.

How about we check this tier's last boss as a melee DPS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_t7md58v0

- No downtime (100% melee uptime)
- No positional Cry me a freaking river Melee DPS
- Every single mechanic in the fight including Natural Alignment happens in the enormous hitbox of the box so Melee can DPS.
- High Concept which WOULD induce melee downtime by the nature of mechanics has the boss conveniently invulnerable.

High Concept is the equivalent of Hello World. Why is the boss invulnerable now? Because it would suck for melee DPS. So SE designed the fight for you to not DPS on it. This is not only unfair to ranged and caster DPS who are getting taxed for no reason anymore. This is ridiculously unfair to healers who still have to plan mitigations and I can tell you a good amount of my groups wipes were healers figuring out. I had nothing to do. I guess I had to think about Radiant Aegis epelaugh:

So let's redefine DPS in this fight.
Caster DPS: A DPS that has to plan their movement during uptime and mechanics. Summoners gets the excuse they are basically a physical ranged DPS with 4 casts per minute.
Ranged DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility.
Melee DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility with a 10% damage buff over Ranged and Caster.

And y'all talking how SMN and MCH should do trash damage because they are brain dead? Look at this Ninja. This was a target dummy fight for him. I don't really care if you're saying they press a lot more buttons than other jobs. So does Machinist? There is no more complexity in fights for melee DPS. There is no more difficulty. Melee DPS is just a ranged physical DPS that doesn't go on the backrow.

I'll go even further and beyond. https://xivanalysis.com/fflogs/VmgJQXdBHFbNPWcK/7 This is their week 1 clear xivanalysis. They have purposefully delayed their last buff window for the Summoner who dropped Phoenix before Ego Death and when they got the buff, the SMN went and quickened his primal summons to get Bahamut ASAP in the buff window:



They got the clear with 1 death. By doing that, the SMN got a final Phoenix which was a free 1300 potency oGCD. The result of them making this choice was definitely not "brain dead". They gave it a lot of thoughts and SMN truly shine on those 1/2 minutes buff windows. This shows one thing. It doesn't matter how smooth and easy a rotation is on a target dummy. What defines a big part of the complexity of a rotation is the fight design. The fight designs have been making it so friendly to melee DPS that it makes it really easy for them. People would like to make you think that MCH and SMN are brain dead. "Look at their stupid silly rotation! Mine is harder!" They definitely will omit to say that thanks to this optimization, that group cleared week 1 P8S with a death.

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

[Rithy255]

2.5% between roles would be fine if those jobs weren't all at the bottom.Like RDM&SMN would be fine to be 3% behind BLM. Except they're all at the bottom. THe real issue is the current taxes don,t fit the new fight designs heavily favoring melee DPS by 8% to 10%. Casters and Physc Ranged are actually balanced between each other with BLM being a bit too high and MCH being too low. The issue is the melee role lol.

I agree hence using "in ranged alone" I was more looking it in their own categories.

I've said that I disagree with melee, I think its generally more challenging for black mages to actually perform well compared to melees, melee tax in it's current state makes no sense, Pranged mind you still should slightly slightly perform worse on average then melee (though the tax should be very minor given the changes that make the game more melee friendly).

I think I've said that melee was the issue serval times before this though, I think melees deserve to be generally nerfed or every non melee should be pushed up (as the devs don't like doing nerfs), we should also be slightly buffing jobs such as Reaper, Machinist and RDM (outside of this) as they'd still be "eh" compared to the other jobs in their category, at least small buffs, my main issue was that MCH is awful damage wise in compared to DNC/BRD and offers no mobility(dnc dash), utility.

[FireMage]

I'm pretty sure I could find many posts where you were wrong.

Literally not possible, troll. You won't find a single post where I said that SMN should be nerfed. Saying it should be at the bottom is not calling for a nerf. I've literally said multiple times that proper balance would increase the damage of MOST of the DPS, and nerf and most a melee or two. But hey, when has the truth every stopped trolls from harassing others?

[CKNovel]

For the sake of argument let's say we're in a happy world and the top and the bottom are 1% away.
What would be the complain?

Jobs don't have the same value in utility?
BLM is more difficult than SMN and the reward is too little?

But in exchange no jobs would be banned from PF, it would be up to the player skill to compensate for the difficulty.
In any case, a week 1 savage player should be able to play any jobs of its role.

"Difficult jobs" (which means... BLM) could have extra utility and personal survival in return.

[Aurora428]

Literally not possible, troll. You won't find a single post where I said that SMN should be nerfed. Saying it should be at the bottom is not calling for a nerf. I've literally said multiple times that proper balance would increase the damage of MOST of the DPS, and nerf and most a melee or two. But hey, when has the truth every stopped trolls from harassing others?

There is literally no reason to touch any melee whose name isn't RPR. If anything, the rest of melee are well balanced enough that they should be the baseline for balancing and should not be touched.

Starting to easy tax melee would be the only thing more cringe than not doing anything about the ranged tax.

[MagiusNecros]

I think the devs should play the game of buffing the other jobs and then buffing Reaper alternatively. Kinda like they do with Warrior, Monk and MCH every odd patch cycle.

"We don't believe in nerfs so jobs will get periodic buffs all the time". Yo ho ho.

[Aikaal]

For the sake of argument let's say we're in a happy world and the top and the bottom are 1% away.
What would be the complain?

Jobs don't have the same value in utility?
BLM is more difficult than SMN and the reward is too little?

But in exchange no jobs would be banned from PF, it would be up to the player skill to compensate for the difficulty.
In any case, a week 1 savage player should be able to play any jobs of its role.

"Difficult jobs" (which means... BLM) could have extra utility and personal survival in return.

The closer top and worst are woudl be best but unrealistic. No job scales the same anyways but yeah, if it was a much lower % nobody would really care.

There is literally no reason to touch any melee whose name isn't RPR. If anything, the rest of melee are well balanced enough that they should be the baseline for balancing and should not be touched.

Starting to easy tax melee would be the only thing more cringe than not doing anything about the ranged tax.

Yeah, I just think that'd be best.

[FireMage]

There is literally no reason to touch any melee whose name isn't RPR. If anything, the rest of melee are well balanced enough that they should be the baseline for balancing and should not be touched.

Starting to easy tax melee would be the only thing more cringe than not doing anything about the ranged tax.

Wrong, MNK and NIN are a smidge too high, hitting each GCD combo hit by like 10 potency would smooth them out. Like BLM should be where MNK is now, and then MNK and NIN where DRG and SAM are, and then the rest all brought up to where they should be