Proposed changes for underperforming jobs

[CKNovel]

I don't think we need to delete or tax the raise from RDM and SMN.
Maybe even make it available to jobs such as DNC.

If BLM was 1% ahead of SMN/RDM, it would face the same debacle MCH has been facing since 5.0.
Why bring a BLM if you could have a SMN/RDM that will save healer GCDs and allows them to close that gap of damage?
BLM only has personal utility.

I'm curious what the BLM players prefer, better utility or the damage advantage?

[Rithy255]

Likewise you'll have to forgive me not quoting you, am on phone and cannot easily edit things.

So "more useful in those situations" meaning "don't have those situations." I can agree to that, again 8 man checks are not ultimate exclusive obviously but the sheer volume of them this tier was ridiculous.
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When I say "variety in form" I mean "they take different roads to reach the same destination." With that said, up or down a percent or two is fine, especially when RDM and SMN would be rDPS jobs relying on team damage while BLM wouldn't. At the moment, the goal of variety of form is achieved; RDM, BLM, and SMN do approach situations differently because the tools they have to approach situations, namely mobility and uptime, are very different. Thus playing a BLM will be a very different experience to playing a RDM. This would be true regardless of if they did similar damage to each other or if RDM arbitrarily lost verraise. Ideally SMN would go back to being like 5.X SMN where it, while still incredibly mobile, did still have to be mindful of its mobility tools, and as far as variety in form is concerned the caster role is perfect. You get to pick what you want to play based on the playstyle you want. Turret caster, "melee" caster, pet caster.

Variety in function necessarily creates situations where you eventually have jobs hard gated. Remember when Paladin was the physical defense flavor tank / "prog tank"? When SAM and MNK were locked out of parties because it not only brought no piercing debuff, but also no aggro management tools a la NIN?

Variety in function is great in single player rpgs, where the trinity is not so strongly enforced. Not so much in a mmo game like XIV, though I hear XI was much better about job identity.

I can't really argue against your argument as it makes the most sense for jobs, I just personally dislike the idea of not really having any support jobs left on dps (other then damage buffs which i find bland), I also would prefer more Varity on tanks then current, PLDs currently in a worse spot as it's just awful defensively and really bad damage, zero reason to use it outside of enjoyment, tanks have more leeway to be more unique at least but they should generally keep similar offense and have similar enough defence, but you can generally make their tools more varied.

I don't even think you're wrong here, your suggestions and changes would likely help balance a lot I just don't really want those sorts of changes from a personal point of view. I personally rather have jobs in the same categories to have more diverse kits ect. (not to the extent where jobs get outright locked out of 50% of groups).

I think I'll concede that really the best solution would be to make raising a caster role action or something (even if i don't want that to be the case).

[SaberMaxwell]

I don't think we need to delete or tax the raise from RDM and SMN.
Maybe even make it available to jobs such as DNC.

If BLM was 1% ahead of SMN/RDM, it would face the same debacle MCH has been facing since 5.0.
Why bring a BLM if you could have a SMN/RDM that will save healer GCDs and allows them to close that gap of damage?
BLM only has personal utility.

I'm curious what the BLM players prefer, better utility or the damage advantage?

This is another route that could be taken. Demote DNC/RDM/SMN/BRD to a "support" role and recategorize the role buffs to emphasize 2 dps/2 support/2 tanks/2 healers. Heck, maybe demote some of the more support focused melee there too.

Then there's no ambiguity about what an actual DPS is and support based jobs can keep their support based identity. Heck at that point they could even be buffed with more utilities like reraise, mana song / mana shift, apocatastasis, palisade, etc.

[FireMage]

BLM doing 1% more DPS will make it better DPS. 1% is not the same. People will play for 1% better DPS. I don't really see how it's hard to understand or accept.

And this folks is why I'm correct. There MUST be a gap or harder Jobs are punished. Which is why ~5% is correct, not this 1% garbage

[Mithron]

Why bring a BLM if you could have a SMN/RDM that will save healer GCDs and allows them to close that gap of damage?

Because it does more damage than SMN/RDM and no one should be dying in the first place? 1% is not insignificant.

[SaberMaxwell]

Also wait, regarding that "will save healer gcds" bit... (following is assuming raise was meant):

First, *may* save healer gcds since nobody is guaranteed to die, second the dps' gcds are still more valuable. The third death within a single minute is the only raise RDM or SMN should grab outside of extremely niche and extenuating circumstances.

Second, ironically Red Mage due to having no personal mit is the caster that most needs babysitting from healers, especially with mechanics like Dominion and Stomp in 8s or the many, many physical raidwides in dsr. Potential cost in healer GCDs, certainly healer resources.

[Rithy255]

This is another route that could be taken. Demote DNC/RDM/SMN/BRD to a "support" role and recategorize the role buffs to emphasize 2 dps/2 support/2 tanks/2 healers. Heck, maybe demote some of the more support focused melee there too.

Then there's no ambiguity about what an actual DPS is and support based jobs can keep their support based identity. Heck at that point they could even be buffed with more utilities like reraise, mana song / mana shift, apocatastasis, palisade, etc.

This actually sounds like a good Idea lmao. I know people would complain but this would actually be really cool, I think DPS would generally need more ranged classes to fill the gap and pure caster dps

How would the support theoretically pair against roles such as tank? I'm guessing it would be pretty far infront of tanks and would also bring a "%" buff for having 2 to prevent 3 DPS 1 support for % buff meta.

[FireMage]

Because it does more damage than SMN/RDM and no one should be dying in the first place? 1% is not insignificant.

It very much is

[CKNovel]

Because it does more damage than SMN/RDM and no one should be dying in the first place? 1% is not insignificant.

In the actual context, it's about 80 aDPS if I'm not wrong?
I don't think it's insignificant but would it be impactful enough?

If we were to increase BLM personal utility (More spellshield, maybe Spellvamp) then it would make sense.

[SaberMaxwell]

This actually sounds like a good Idea lmao. I know people would complain but this would actually be really cool, I think DPS would generally need more ranged classes to fill the gap and pure caster dps

How would the support theoretically pair against roles such as tank? I'm guessing it would be pretty far infront of tanks and would also bring a "%" buff for having 2 to prevent 3 DPS 1 support for % buff meta.

I could draw up some theoreticals later today but I lack a lot of data to write definitives, especially knowing that SE is not likely to listen to them lol. Thank you for the kind words though

What I will say is, looking at the current dps spread, we're basically there in all but name already. 7.0 will probably add a new caster and split the role into damage caster and raise caster, so there's also that.