How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[flowerfairy]

Oh, and as for the "one healer sacrificed" - I guess my thinking is, I don't consider it a "sacrifice". Many people WANT that playstyle.

I wonder, why exactly do people like this sort of gameplay? Because it’s simple? Maybe some sort of thinking like “I have less to worry about for damage, so I can focus on healing!”

No job in the game is excused from not having to deal damage. As such, I think that every job MUST have an engaging rotation, whether it’s simple or complex. Players must be taught the weight of doing something right or wrong.

What exactly does Glare and Dia teach players about dealing damage? What is there to pay attention to other than a 30s DoT? What does a new player get punished by if they keep overcapping the lily gauge? Nothing, nothing, nothing.

Take a look at this kit for WHM I made up:

• Stone III - 2s GCD. Charges bar by 10%. Every 3 casts, proc empowered Stone IV.
  
• Stone IV - 2s GCD. Charges bar by 5%. When proc’d, instant cast and charges bar by 10%.
  
• Water III - 1.5s GCD. Charges bar by 5%. In Water III mode, charge bar by 10%. 30% chance to proc Water IV mode.
  
• Water IV - 1.5s GCD. Charges bar by 5%. In Water IV mode, charge bar by 10%. 30% chance to proc Water III mode.
  
• Enlight - Expends bar, dealing max potency at 100%. Switches bar to opposite element.

The core rotation: (S3 > S3 > S3 > S4) x 3 > Enlight > W3 > (W3 or W4 depending on mode) x 9 > Enlight > repeat. Spells used in its proper phase deal bonus damage. Casting Stone spells in Water phase or vice versus drops the bar. Heals and Misery do not interrupt the S3 combo, and you automatically enter W3 mode in Water phase. Let's forget about Aero II and III for the moment.

This is a simple rotation with a predictable Stone phase and procs to pay attention to in Water phase. There is a GOOD way to do the rotation, a BAD way to do it, and a BEST way to do it. This is also why I want a regen lily spell to be separated from Solace and Rapture. You need to be able to choose the correct spell for the correct moment.

We can even add a reward to this:

Enlight - additional effect: When used at 80% Earth bar, grant 1 lily. When used at 80% Water bar, grant Freecure.

Now you’re rewarded for doing your rotation correctly. “But wait, what if you’re already full on lilies! You’ll have to spend one before pressing Enlight!” Yes, you will have to watch your lily gauge before casting Enlight. Or, you don’t have to. The damage you’ll gain is miniscule anyways. This is what optimization should be about.

This kit is easy to understand and yet forces you to pay attention to deal the most amount of damage. It STRESSES you, and that’s good. Games need to stress players. Platformers, RPGs, fighters, etc. FFXIV should be no different.

There’s nothing wrong with an easy class, but Glarespam is beyond easy. It fails to teach you what a caster should be about, and fails to challenge players.

[Renathras]

Quotes

To the first: I consider things by their effects. IF MP MANAGEMENT WAS an issue in this game, then MP cost would be a valid consideration. But it isn't, and likely won't be again unless/until they do a large revamp of the combat system. If healer MP becomes an issue, then people will have legitimate reasons to not cast Glare/Dia/etc, which the Devs have decided they don't want (granted, they could just make those spells cost no MP, but they likely won't do that, either). Besides which, effect determines use case. For the sake of argument, suppose we had Medica 2 costing 1k MP, 2 sec base cast, 2.5 sec GCD, having a 250 potency cure and a 15 second 100 potency Regen (same as today). Suppose we had Solace as a 2 sec base cast, 2.5 sec GCD, having a 250 potency cure and a 15 second 100 potency Regen. Suppose we had some kind of CD that also consumed 2 seconds of the GCD window somehow, and likewise had the same stats.

In practice, they'd all fill exactly the same use, which is amazingly boring imo because the distinction is just based on resource cost, and MP is never a limiting resource unless you're chain casting Raise.

In live, you use Lilies over MP costing GCDs because they're instant cast and refund the lost damage of a foregone Glare, not because their MP cost is 0 instead of 1,000. If Medica 2 (or even 1) generated a Blood Lily and was instant cast, people would probably use those spells somewhat frequently as well. And you don't always use Lilies for movement (that's an additional use case that just makes Medicas even more irrelevant). If, on the other hand, they had distinct effects, then it would make use to have both in your toolkit. As it is in the game right now, there's legitimately no reason for Medica 1 to exist after around level 50. Lower level content generally doesn't require chain casting AOE heals, and the first fight I remember NEEDING to do this was Niddy, which is during a stack mechanic where you have Cure 3 and use it instead.

I dunno, I may not be wording it well, but I consider the effect of spells as the deciding factor, generally. That Lilies cost no MP isn't relevant in my deciding to use one, but that they are instant and damage neutral is. PERSONALLY I'd like to see them as Regens (in whole or part) and Lilies turned more into a system you use frequently to provide continuous healing over time, but that's apparently just me.

EDIT (for space):

sacrificed

Consider that a lot of people play MMOs. A lot of TYPES of people play MMOs. And apparently, one type of Human is the type that likes to help others but not necessarily harm others. For example, doctors in our world do not often carry guns and shoot people. You can argue ones in war do, but it's more ones in war CAN, some genuinely choose not to (e.g. Hacksaw Ridge). These players that don't like dealing damage/harm but DO enjoy aiding friends and allies tend to pick the role called "healer".

If you'd like to posit a guess as to why they pick such a role instead of the one called "damage dealer", I think it might be instructive for you to consider such a question.

It's not a matter of being "excused", it's that they shouldn't HAVE to.

But, given that in FFXIV it's become accepted that they must, then the solution is to have as unimposing and, more importantly, unOBTRUSIVE a piece of that as possible. Again, these people are picking the role called "healer", not the role called "damage dealer". I'm not trying to belabor the point or rub anyone's nose in it, but there are Jobs that fall under the role called "damage dealer" (quite a few of them), and these people are actively choosing NOT to pick one of the Jobs under that role. No one picking "healer" at level 1 is thinking they are picking a damage dealer, just as no one taking classes as a nurse thinks they're entering the police academy.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence or anything (honestly, I'm really not), I'm just saying more that I'm genuinely confused when people ask this question. As if it's never occurred that one might pick a "healer" role because they DON'T enjoy damage dealing, DON'T find it engaging or interesting gameplay, and DON'T want any more mental effort or practice devoted to this thing that they dislike.

To them, a two button damage "rotation" is ideal (less ideal than no damage at all, of course, but more ideal than anything more advanced) as it means they have to devote as little thought to the thing they dislike as possible while being able to focus on the things they do like. To use the example above, suppose at nursing school everyone was required to take marksmanship courses and carry a gun, including those that are averse to violence in general, may hate guns, and are pacifists. If they were given the option of one degree plan that only required one semester of firearm training vs the "standard" course that required one each semester (eight total), many nursing students would likely opt for the degree plan that only required the 1 rather than the 8, so they could minimize their interaction with the thing(s) they dislike and focus more on the thing(s) they like that drew them to nursing and that they personally deem more important and worthy of their mental energies and study.

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HOWEVER:

As I've noted before, this isn't true of everyone.

There are many people/healers that the above fits to a T. There are some that it fits to a lower-case-t. Maybe they don't like damage dealing and would prefer buffing as their support/filler gameplay, but for whom the above fits close enough.

But there are ALSO many people who that does not fit.

Ergo, my base argument:

We have 4 healers; make 4 playstyles so everyone has one that appeals to them.

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I guess my bigger question is why people wanting to change healers feel the need to FORCE them all to and for none to be approachable to players that don't like damage dealing, and, in fact, chose the role called healer explicitly to avoid it as much as possible.

I've been given a number of answers, but none are really satisfying. One is from people that want the more damage focused gameplay, but want to play WHM SPECIFICALLY. But when asked if they'd allow a different healer to remain simple, they often refuse that, too (because of course they ALSO want to play that one, I guess?), which comes across as somewhat unreasonable.

Another answer is "everyone deals damage in this game", but that's unsatisfactory as well - no one is saying to strip all damage spells from any healers, and one does not need more than even a single button to deal damage, so one retaining Glare/Dia/Misery isn't violating the "must do damage" rule.

Another is that it shouldn't be "too easy", but that's also not acceptable - difficulty is highly subjective at the best of times, but the Devs have clearly decided that is not "too" easy, as has the player base as a whole. And games SHOULD be accessible, meaning there isn't such a thing as "too easy" anyway.

Another is the belief that those players who enjoy current gameplay REALLY don't and would like it if they were forced to change and just "gave it a chance". But the thing is, if we did that with 3 of our 4 healers, they would already have that option (and most healer players DO dabble in more than one as it is), so there's no reason to force them. Further, "force" should never even be involved in the first place. Finally, because they may NOT like it, and if all 4 were changed, they wouldn't have the option to decline. It's kind of like a friend who insists you'd like their special peanut butter and pickle sandwich if only you tried it...and then refuse to eat or spend time with you unless you try one. And if you don't like it, tough, because they've replaced all meals in your home and city/etc with variations of peanut butter and pickles and if you don't, in fact, like it, too bad for you.

You mention it "fails to challenge players", but what is "challenge"? I've healed Ex4. That's pretty challenging at some parts of it. What should "a caster...be about"? And remember we're not talking about the CASTER role here, we're talking about the HEALER role here: We have three Jobs in the Caster role, which are BLM, SMN, and RDM, none of which have to juggle healing (sit DOWN Vercure spamming RDM!!) alongside their damage rotation.

You say it stresses people and that's GOOD? Many people play games to relax and chill, even when doing challenging content with friends. STRESS is not considered good. And, again, we have THREE OTHER JOBS they can get stressed out on if they wished to do so, why should all four be that way?

.

I guess my issue here is you ask a question - why would people not want what you're offering? - and you explain your reasoning - because people should be stressed out and having heart attacks whenever playing videogames because that's what you enjoy and you think everyone should (I embellish, but you get the point). Your reasoning is based on what you think games SHOULD be, but we're already talking about you getting that in 3 other cases. Meaning you can get on SCH, AST, or SGE and enjoy that style of gameplay experience yourself.

But...not everyone enjoys that.

And if you have your way, there will be no place in the game for them. If 50% of healers quit, is that a positive thing?

Not for the game, nor for the community, one would think.

And if you're getting 3 out of 4 things you want, why must you get all 4 - even if it means robbing people of 4 out of 4 things that they want - to be satisfied?

.

Personally, I DO like the rotation you mentioned above.

I think that would be a great system...for Sage. I've said myself a number of times SGE should have a damage rotation akin to RDM's caster phase (ignoring the melee piece) and leverage Kardia to do the lion's share of their healing, while having their GCD heals and their oGCD mitigation abilities to patch up for rotational errors or things Kardia healing isn't sufficient for. Instead of making Kardia Eos by another name, to actually make it a healing tool in truth.

SGE heals by dealing damage, and it would be neat to me if their damage rotation was more engaging and if doing it correctly meant less reliance on other healing tools. They still have GCDs as backup in cases they DIDN'T do it correctly, but imagine the system you outlined above just changing Lilies for Addersgall and where Enlight (or the equivalent of it) also generated a Addersting stack or something. Now a good SGE is rewarded for doing their rotation by more oGCD heals they can use as well as more GCD damage they can employ, and a SGE that isn't as good at their rotation has their natural AG timer and GCD heals to rely on instead. Meanwhile, WHM is left alone for the people that don't want to deal with any of that.

Everyone wins. Well, everyone except the people that demand they must have everything and everyone else must enjoy the game as they do.

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I recognize some of this sounds like a negative/insult, but I'm trying to explain it as simply and honestly as I can.

If we changed up the 3 healers but left WHM alone, I would mostly use WHM. When I felt like it, I might use SGE with the above rotation. I would probably drop SCH because I absolutely hate DoTs and the button bloat on that Job already borderline gives me a headache (note I didn't address this above, but unless we pruned a LOT of abilities, the button bloat of adding 5 damage spells to the SIMPLE healer, and presumably more to the others, would explode hotbars)

The best option, imo, is to make SCH, AST, and SGE fill different design spaces, and WHM can be left both for those who like it and as the base/anchor point. This would get the least pushback as anyone who DOES like healing today could shift to WHM (and it would easily be the most played healer at that point, since I'd wager that's more of the playerbase), and the others exist to offer varied playstyles for people that want to engage with them.

To me, the question shouldn't be "Why would people who chose to play healers not want involved DPS rotations?"

The question COULD be "Why would people who want involved DPS rotations play the healer role instead of damage dealer, which already has DNC, RDM, and SMN capable of throwing out healing, or the tank role of PLD for that matter?"

But those aren't good questions.

The question we SHOULD ask is:

"If there's an approach that gives everyone something they want and can enjoy, why should we not use that instead?"

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I've tried peanut butter and pickles - believe me, my friend that loves them wouldn't quit until I did.

I did not, in fact, find the combination all that enjoyable and have avoided partaking ever since.

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EDIT2:

The issue is that even with better dps toolkits, removing healing ogcds, without replacing them with offensive ones, would just end up slowing the role further down.



No. Every healer who even touches cure 1 would even under this system be subpar and it would basically only remove the single remaining challenge of healers, to map their ogcds correctly to keep their dps rolling, without adding anything else as long as it doesn't come with proper dps rotations. Not to forget that gcd heals in this game are even more boring than the single glare spam. That one at least looks pretty.

Wait, I'm a bit confused here. I'm told all the time SB and further back was amazing healer gameplay. In SB, WHM functioned almost exactly as today (I know, I was there) with one key difference: They didn't have Lilies (well, they did, but they were glorified Freecure), and Misery was called Aero 3 and was cool to look at but much less powerful and couldn't be used while moving. Yes, their DoTs had to be cast more often, but so did their GCD heals. And you seem to believe casting other spells more often doesn't make more interesting gameplay, so if casting Medica more often isn't interesting gameplay, casting Aero 2 more often can't be, either, now can it?

And to be hoenst, this hatred towards optimization focussed healers who want to contribute as much as possible to the party sounds like envy towards people who are just better at playing this game and who you know are contributing more towards the party and are more popular with randoms and statics alike than "I just want to heal and spread love and peace uWu" healers.

Wow, this is an amazing bit of...I'm not even going to say what it is.

No one hates optimization focused healers, and people aren't at all envious towards them. If anything, it sounds like the optimization focused folks are envious towards the ones that just enjoy the game and have fun and want to make those people as miserable as they are. Your comment reeks of the outdated elitist viewpoint that you stand on top of the bank in Orgrimmar with full Tier 3 and everyone and their grandmother (who also plays WoW) is involuntarily forced by their rapidly beating heart to stop and stare and bask in the aura of your awesomeness knowing that you're better than them, so MUCH better than them, and you're the talk of the server as you single-handedly carry your 40 man raid to clears and everyone basks in how amazing you are with your skill and contribution to the server and party. Every woman wants to date you and every man wants to be you, and so on and so forth.

It's so 2005.

People who oppose people like you do so because they don't enjoy the same gameplay you do.

There's no hate except on your part looking down your nose at them.

[flowerfairy]

These players that don't like dealing damage/harm but DO enjoy aiding friends and allies tend to pick the role called "healer".

Players must also be disappointed when they play a “tank”, right? Should we have a tank that does nothing but absorb damage? Imagine WAR but with no buff upkeep, no Inner Release, no Primal Rend, no Infuriate, no Upheaval. They only have 1-2-3, Fell Cleave, Tomahawk, and Overpower. From what I understand, this is what you want to happen to WHM for the sake of keeping one job “accessible” for everyone. There might be people who want even the buff upkeep to go away, but I assure you there will be many more upset with these changes. SAM players don’t stop complaining about Kaiten and rightfully so.

White mages are not lovey-dovey care bears. They had an entire war with black mages and almost broke the world over it. The Conjurer quest line also makes it clear that conjury is not just about healing your friends. Are these pure-hearted healers upset seeing that the lore of the game does not support their ideology?

I guess my bigger question is why people wanting to change healers feel the need to FORCE them all to and for none to be approachable to players that don't like damage dealing, and, in fact, chose the role called healer explicitly to avoid it as much as possible.

That kit I described does not take away any core heals that WHM has. The healers that like to say “I don’t want to do more! I want to heal! I’m good at healing!” will not lose anything should there be a mini-DPS rotation waiting for them. Do these players seriously get a heart attack the moment they see more than 3 damage buttons on their kit? Personally, I think they should stop adventuring given we see much more horrific things than that.

You talk like more DPS buttons will take away something from healers, but what exactly? A sense of security that they’re doing the best they can?

Healers that want to only heal will continue only using heals. Healers that want to do better will use the damage rotation to make their presence more useful in a fight.

[flowerfairy]

You mention it "fails to challenge players", but what is "challenge"? I've healed Ex4. That's pretty challenging at some parts of it. What should "a caster...be about"? And remember we're not talking about the CASTER role here, we're talking about the HEALER role here

Casters are jobs that have to stay rooted in place to fire a majority of their spells. Instead of a combo progression like melee and p.ranged, they react to procs and status effects and they have to manage instant cast spells properly for when they can’t stay rooted. Glarespam does none of that. SMN is also a failure of a caster but that’s another discussion.

Glarespam has led to an unhealthy sense of accomplishment that someone is putting the same amount of work of others by spamming 1 button. It was fine in ARR because of how damage gets unpredictably spread, but it does not fit EW fights. Dealing damage is the king of utility, so all jobs should reflect that. IMHO, I find it strange that you consider removing Glarespam to be forcing damage down healer’s throats while simultaneously being fine with every other healer getting objectively more engaging gameplay.

Yes, healers aren’t a part of the caster role, but they are still casters. I’m not saying to give healers a completely fleshed out kit made specifically for damage like casters, I just want something more than Glare Dia Misery. Literally anything more than that please. Tanks are not melee jobs and yet they have engaging combo-progression rotations, even WAR.

You say it stresses people and that's GOOD? Many people play games to relax and chill, even when doing challenging content with friends. STRESS is not considered good.

I’ll never, ever, ever, ever understand this point.

GAMES SHOULD BE HARD. They should CHALLENGE you. It makes the feeling of success more IMPACTFUL.

There is already so much casual content in FFXIV. Combat should at least have a higher skill ceiling. And even in MSQ fights to get through the story, players are not expected by the devs to perform even close to optimal. That’s why there’s barely any enrages in Normal fights. If players don’t want challenging content, why even consider doing Extremes and Savage?

Also, you’re always talking about the majority of healers enjoying this gameplay and how changing all healers will kill the role completely. It’s all anecdotal so it isn’t worth discussing, but from my experience with the players that I’ve talked to in-game, a majority of players are not satisfied with healer gameplay. Healers are still constantly in demand since ShB and still get instant queues, more so than tanks.

Edit: A bit off-topic, but I like to play fighting games, and there’s been a weird stigma in recent games between accessibility and gameplay. For some reason, fighting game devs think that players want the game to be accessible and easy to play because past games have hard controls. They start to neglect interesting single-player modes and complex battle systems. They make accessibility the core feature of their game.

So they develop games like Fantasy Strike, DNF Duel, and Blazblue: Cross Tag Battle. And you know what happens to these games? They die 1 month after arrival.

Because casual players don’t care about accessibility. People want to do cool stuff. They want to feel like they’re doing something cool. They want something to stay engaged in the game. A game can be both accessible and cool-looking, but it doesn’t hold a strong advantage over a game that feels cool to play. Casual players like to jump from one game to the next if it looks cooler, and only devoted players stay engaged in that old game. Just a trend I noticed.

[IDontPetLalas]

snip

I’ll never, ever, ever, ever understand this point.

GAMES SHOULD BE HARD. They should CHALLENGE you. It makes the feeling of success more IMPACTFUL.

There is already so much casual content in FFXIV. Combat should at least have a higher skill ceiling. And even in MSQ fights to get through the story, players are not expected by the devs to perform even close to optimal. That’s why there’s barely any enrages in Normal fights. If players don’t want challenging content, why even consider doing Extremes and Savage?

Also, you’re always talking about the majority of healers enjoying this gameplay and how changing all healers will kill the role completely. It’s all anecdotal so it isn’t worth discussing, but from my experience with the players that I’ve talked to in-game, a majority of players are not satisfied with healer gameplay. Healers are still constantly in demand since ShB and still get instant queues, more so than tanks.

Edit: A bit off-topic, but I like to play fighting games, and there’s been a weird stigma in recent games between accessibility and gameplay. For some reason, fighting game devs think that players want the game to be accessible and easy to play because past games have hard controls. They start to neglect interesting single-player modes and complex battle systems. They make accessibility the core feature of their game.

So they develop games like Fantasy Strike, DNF Duel, and Blazblue: Cross Tag Battle. And you know what happens to these games? They die 1 month after arrival.

Because casual players don’t care about accessibility. People want to do cool stuff. They want to feel like they’re doing something cool. They want something to stay engaged in the game. A game can be both accessible and cool-looking, but it doesn’t hold a strong advantage over a game that feels cool to play. Casual players like to jump from one game to the next if it looks cooler, and only devoted players stay engaged in that old game. Just a trend I noticed.

Not everyone wants to be challenged, and "hard" is extremely subjective.

A large part of FFXIV's success is likely due to the fact that there is a wide range of difficulty in content, If someone wants to be challenged and wants to optimize, then there is Savage and Ultimate and the new dungeons that will be out soon.

However, for the segment of the population that wants to relax, there is the MSQ, or the normal level content. People may have multiple reasons to do what many people would consider "faceroll easy" content- whether they are tired from work, disabled, older- whatever. This segment also wants to do cool stuff. They can also be devoted, however their standards for "success" are different.

[Renathras]

Casters are jobs that have to stay rooted in place to fire a majority of their spells.

Ah, I see you haven't heard the "Good News" about our Lord and Savior, SMN?

Instead of a combo progression like melee and p.ranged, they react to procs and status effects and they have to manage instant cast spells properly for when they can’t stay rooted.

Again, have you met SMN? SMN aside:

WHM has to use Lilies/natural Dia refreshes for when they can't stay rooted and has to slidecast Glare the rest of the time. This is functionally equivalent to RDM, except RDM's base cast is 2 sec instead of 1.5 sec, but in exchange, they get a full 3 sec (0.5+2.5) of slidecast through Dualcast. The only difference here is (a) RDM has procs (which isn't at all a Caster staple as, again, SMN doesn't have them) and (b) a melee phase, which WHM has healing it has to do for the party instead. WHM has less buttons, but similar limitations.

SMN is also a failure of a caster but that’s another discussion.

Heh. "The thing that disproves my point doesn't count...!"

EDIT:

Glarespam has led to an unhealthy sense of accomplishment

...and there it is.

This, I think, is the truth behind the "Healers need more DPS buttons" argument that no one wants to admit and people attack me for pointing out, but it ultimately comes down to this. Most of the arguments are from people who optimize upset that people who don't can do the same things they do, even though optimization is only one piece of clearing content (fight knowledge, succeeding in the dance, and having 7 dancer partners who can do it with you being the parts left out)

It was fine in ARR because of how damage gets unpredictably spread, but it does not fit EW fights.

Funny you say this, considering most "care bear healers" WANT ARR type fights back, which would fix this whole mess then, now wouldn't it?

Dealing damage is the king of utility, so all jobs should reflect that.

No, it isn't. It by definition isn't utility at all by any MMO definition of the term, which is something more like "non-damage abilities that can aid in clearing content or overcoming challenges". By general accepted definition, damage CAN'T be utility, much less its king.

IMHO, I find it strange that you consider removing Glarespam to be forcing damage down healer’s throats while simultaneously being fine with every other healer getting objectively more engaging gameplay.

SUBjectively more engaging gameplay. As I've said before, I consider DoT juggling annoying, not engaging.

And the point stands: If you're forcing things on people against their will, even though you have 75% of the other options all yours that they now don't have (because they've been changed to no longer reflect their preferred playstyle), YES, this is force.

Again, YOU like DoT juggling and buff/debuff/procs. That's GREAT!

That's why I'm literally arguing for you to have THREE WHOLE HEALER JOBS devoted to you and your preferred gameplay! For most of FFXIV's history, that's be the ENTIRE NUMBER OF HEALING JOBS in the game! How is that not good enough for you?

Yes, healers aren’t a part of the caster role, but they are still casters.

By game definition, they are not. They are Healers. That's like saying Tanks are Melee when the game clearly makes a distinction. Tanks, for example, have no positionals (would be kinda hard to land for the MT), and PLD is as much a Caster (or Ranged, if you prefer) as SMN is.

They're Healers. Again, there is a role for Casters, you are welcome to try it out.

I’m not saying to give healers a completely fleshed out kit made specifically for damage like casters, I just want something more than Glare Dia Misery. Literally anything more than that please.

And under this hypothetical change, you'd be getting it!

SCH, AST, and SGE would ALL have more than Glare/Dia/Misery and be right there for you to pick up. Your picture says your Main Class is Scholar Lv 90, so what's the problem?

Tanks are not melee jobs and yet they have engaging combo-progression rotations, even WAR.

Define "engaging".

Also: Have you heard of our Prince of Light, MCH, which has a combo-progression rotation? Is MCH a Melee Job?

It seems your categorization of Jobs is a smidge off. What defines a Melee is combos, but also having to stay in melee and maximize uptime and also having to land positionals or suffering a DPS loss. Indeed, that last point is what makes Melee distinct, and Tanks (and MCH) don't do it, and thus are not Melees.

I’ll never, ever, ever, ever understand this point.

Because:

1) You aren't trying to, and,

2) You're not even paying attention to what the point is: Considering how I've asked you a number of times now who is arguing for the straw man you're attacking, it's clear you can't understand the point because you aren't even acknowledging the correct point you're opposed to, you're fighting a straw man caricature of it that doesn't even exist.

GAMES SHOULD BE HARD.

Says who?

They should CHALLENGE you.

FFXIV's boss mechanics challenge people, regardless of what their Job rotations are. So the game ALREADY does this, even with Glarespam.

It makes the feeling of success more IMPACTFUL.

To who? You?

And everyone else is the same as you?

How did you arrive at the conclusion everyone else is the same as you are?

Combat should at least have a higher skill ceiling.

It does?

Bosses in FFXIV are not Patchwerk tank and spanks. Bosses have mechanics that must be performed. A Job could have ZERO buttons and only autoattack and the boss fights would already be challenging in that sense. The rotations and complexity are only additional layers on top.

[EDIT2: To flesh this out a bit more - when MMOs started, the fights we have today would be unheard of. Most fights WERE tank and spank with some modification, such having to dispell something or deal with a few adds that also largely performed autoattacks. Hunter rotations in Molten Core Vanilla WoW were literally autoattack since the bosses had a hard limit of debuffs AND classes didn't have good agro management abilities. Mechanics like FFXIV's today would have blown people's minds and literally be unclearable for gamers at the time since they'd have no idea what all the mechanics and tells and debuffs and so on were or have any idea how to approach resolving them. Anyone saying fights aren't AT LEAST challenging is either lying, jaded, or both.]

If players don’t want challenging content, why even consider doing Extremes and Savage?

Largely because of friends wanting to do them and because gear is gated behind them. If Savage gear and Extreme/Savage mounts and titles were available without having to clear that content, no one would care.

AND BEFORE YOU SAY IT: It's still locked behind it. I know what you're going to say "They don't NEED it for the content they do". No one NEEDS anything (other than Ultimates). You can do Savages in (min ilevel) tome gear, too. So that argument doesn't fly. You asked a question and you have the answer, whether or not you want or like it, it is the answer still.

Also: Ultimates exist. That's the "hard" content in FFXIV. Or supposed to be, anyway.

Also, you’re always talking about the majority of healers enjoying this gameplay and how changing all healers will kill the role completely.

Strawman again. If you didn't argue against strawmen so much, we might actually reach an understanding.

I contend content is already challenging for the majority of healers, but also that it would be fine if challenging content was CHALLENGING TO HEAL.

If I wanted to have a challenge to DPS, I'd be playing NIN, not WHM.

but from my experience with the players that I’ve talked to in-game, a majority of players are not satisfied with healer gameplay.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this: When asking players if they are satisfied with healer gameplay, who have you talked to? People who play like you do or a completely random sample of players across all walks of the game-life? Were there members of your sample that don't do Savages or even Extremes? Where there members who only do Extremes as their end-game content and either don't do Savages, have never stepped foot into Savages, or only do Savages rarely when invited/dragged by friends/FC mates?

Or were you only talking to people that raid constantly and are old hands at it? That wouldn't be a good cross-section of the healer community.

Because casual players don’t care about accessibility. People want to do cool stuff. They want to feel like they’re doing something cool. They want something to stay engaged in the game. A game can be both accessible and cool-looking, but it doesn’t hold a strong advantage over a game that feels cool to play. Casual players like to jump from one game to the next if it looks cooler, and only devoted players stay engaged in that old game. Just a trend I noticed.

It could also be that people haven't heard of them. I've literally never heard of any of those games. And I stopped playing things like Smash Bros, Street Fighter, Marvel vs, and so on when they became hyper-technical such that a skilled player could 100-0% someone who didn't know the mechanic of combo-break-reverse-infinite-juggle-madness or whatever. It made it where the games weren't fun or cool and were just "who has spent the most time in online forums reading how to insta-kill-infinite-juggle with overpowered character X".

A lot of people, it turns out, DON'T enjoy that much.

And this "Casual players like to jump from one game to the next" is BS. I'm as casual as they come, apparently, and I tend to stick with games for years. Decades even.

.

But yeah - pay attention to the arguments people are actually making. They're clearly not the ones you're thinking they're making.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

WHM vs WAR comparisons

Beast Gauge & Lily Gauge generates differently.
Infuriate behaves fundamentally different it's almost impossible to compare it with Lucid Dreaming.
Fell Cleaves/Decimate, despite being a gauge spender, still is not an equal comparison to Misery. Each usage interacts with Infuriate by pushing its timer by 7.5s.
Inner Release is similar but nothing like "press and forget for its duration" like PoM does. It also interacts with Beast Gauge & Infuriate timer. You can even choose when you want to fire off that Primal Rend accordingly. In this sense Primal Rend is closer to Misery than Fell Cleave, albeit with shorter manipulation window.

Cutting the benchmarking short---If I want to be completely honest however, these two shouldn't even be compared from first place. Regardless how much WAR is often memed for being the most braindead of the tanks, WHM still pales in comparison in term of complexity it's almost insulting to WARs.

(SMN and things)[...]By game definition, they are not. They are Healers. That's like saying Tanks are Melee when the game clearly makes a distinction. Tanks, for example, have no positionals (would be kinda hard to land for the MT), and PLD is as much a Caster (or Ranged, if you prefer) as SMN is.[...]

I'm not flowerfairy, but I think what they meant by their 'caster' in this context literally means "Spellcasters". Those who operates mostly by casting (e.g. requires somatic incantation).

I think, is the truth behind the "Healers need more DPS buttons" argument that no one wants to admit and people attack me for pointing out, but it ultimately comes down to this. Most of the arguments are from people who optimize upset that people who don't can do the same things they do, even though optimization is only one piece of clearing content

Do you think you know what they're thinking while they're trying to (re)clear the content? Do you honestly think those people really care what other player do? I personally don't give a flying f- whether A, B, C, or D can clear the content because they use some omegalul easy class, or use 12 hotbars to optimize their galaxy brain rotation. The only thing that matters to me is how I personally contribute meaningfully & adequately to the collective goal while also finding ways to have fun.

That is a lie and even you have to know it. An outright lie. Right now, they're able to clear content - content you likely don't WANT them to be able to clear. Unless the difference in DPS between doing the rotation correctly and pressing only Water 3 is 0.0000001% (so that there's literally no point in even having it), they would no longer be able to clear things with their current rotation/playstyle, which WOULD be taking something from them.

You may wish/want/believe they SHOULD have that content taken from them, but don't lie about it.

'Bad healers' (i.e. outdpsed and outhealed by their own co-healer) are already & had been clearing contents albeit outside week 1 and most earlier weeks, so what are you trying to prove wrong here? That is called being the weak link of the group, and yet a clear is still a clear (I have known a few of them in my own FC). These healers wouldn't do much different with simple rotation vs robust rotation if they simply have no real desire to improve, period. Again, do you honestly think people really care about another's progression in general?

Largely because of friends wanting to do them and because gear is gated behind them. If Savage gear and Extreme/Savage mounts and titles were available without having to clear that content, no one would care.
Also: Ultimates exist. That's the "hard" content in FFXIV. Or supposed to be, anyway.

Valid. Still, why do you think things like 'speedruns' or in general 'good runs' exist for? For mounts? Savage gears? Titles? Please just do not answer this question if you're going to say something along the line "I don't care that much to know enough about that part". I will not pry further.

[...]maybe you guys should stop with the hyperboles.

Those hyperboles are rarely intended to portray the reality but nonetheless still a viable (and with proper use, can be fun!) mean to get points across. So instead of focusing too much to these hyperboles (which you have implied so far that you can spot it), how about addressing the actual points instead? Because you're not doing any favor to yourself nor to the discussion by getting over-fixated with it other than virtually avoiding to discuss that very point.

Lastly, please please, for the love of Hydaelyn. Try keeping your post more concise or at least put them in wrapped text box (I remembered you learning how to do it in one of your past discussions months ago). Folks are less eager to respond to you when you keep committing Flood of Texting, good points can often get lost.

[Renathras]

This...is gonna be a long one.

Players must also be disappointed when they play a “tank”, right?

Here's my problem dealing with folks like you - I try to give honest answers to your questions and you give me snark and hyperbole completely based ON YOUR SUBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE not realizing there are OTHER PEOPLE WITH OTHER PERSPECTIVES.

I'm not trying to insult you with all the caps, but please read that again.

Where did I say "disappointed"? I completely LOVE WHM right now. I'm not "disappointed" in it or playing it at all. Probably a good 30-40% of healers wouldn't be. And instead of hyperbole, let's make a fair comparison:

WHM has - single nuke attack for single target and AOE, an upkeep buff (DoT), a gauge generator (lilies), and spender (Misery), an oGCD attack (Assize), a damage buff (Presence of Mind), and a resource generation CD (Lucid Dreaming)

So for your comparison to be apt, we'd have to have a WAR with Storm's Path (Glare), Overpower (Holy), Storm's Eye (or a DoT that has the same timer - if anything Eye is easier to manage since it's more flexible about overcapping since you can stack it twice to 60 sec, but this would be your Dia), Beast Gauge (Lily Gauge), Fell Cleave or Decimate (probably Decimate but with Fell Cleave's animation - Misery), Upheaval or Orogony (probably Orogony - Assize), Inner Release (Presence of Mind), and Infuriate (Lucid Dreaming).

This is basically WAR's entire present day kit. The only parts missing here are Heavy Swing and Maim (the 1-2 of the 1-2-3/1-2-4), Primal Rend, Onslaught, Tomahawk, Mythril Tempest, and Decimate, with Upheaval/Orogeny being combined and Fell Cleave/Decimate being combined. You'd literally only be losing the ability to somehow fat-finger an AOE version of your spender and oGCD attack (which no one does; I have them on my second hotbar tab so that's not even possible to do), the secondary attack that Inner Release gives (buzzsaw go brrr), and the 2 of your 1-2 AOE combo, and I'm not even sure taking away Onslaught (gap closer - WHM isn't a melee so doesn't need one, but SGE even has one, so WAR keeping it would make sense) or Tomahawk (since WHM's Glare is already ranged - though if we made Storm's Eye and Storm's Path ranged attacks, we wouldn't need it, I suppose?). And note that WAR's spam doesn't have a cast time, so WHM is already harder than this just having to factor in slidecasting uptime.

So, in practice, this is basically already what WAR is today. So your attempt at "no one would like this" - we're basically already there. And while some people ARE "disappointed" in that, many people love it.

EDIT:

Should we have a tank that does nothing but absorb damage?

I'll ask you, too:

Where did I advocate for WHM having no damage spells?

This is, again, the hyperbole - literally no one is arguing for the straw man you're attacking. What part of "leave WHM like it is today" says to you "remove Glare, Dia, Holy, Misery, and Assize and make WHM only cast healing spells and nothing else"? For this comparison to be accurate, SOMEONE would have to be advocating that. Who is advocating that in this thread/discussion? Can you quote them for me, because I don't see anyone saying remove all WHM damage spells and make them a healer with no damage output. I see someone (me) saying leave WHM as it is today, but as it is today isn't a healer that only heals, so a comparison to a tank that only absorbs damage isn't valid.

Imagine WAR but with no buff upkeep,

Current WHM has Dia. That's an upkeep buff. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Storm's Eye still.

no Inner Release,

Current WHM has Presence of Mind. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Inner Release still.

no Primal Rend,

So...WAR in ShB?

no Infuriate,

Current WHM has Lucid Dreaming. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Infuriate.

no Upheaval.

Current WHM has Assize. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Upheaval (though it would be combined with Orogeny, but WAR's don't use their AOE buttons in single target and Orogeny shares a CD with Upheaval, so this is functionally equivalent to Assize, just the hypothetical WAR's Orogeny would also provide a 10 second 10% mitigation buff since your hypothetical WAR's main duty would be mitigation vs WHM's of healing.)

They only have 1-2-3, Fell Cleave, Tomahawk, and Overpower.

As I pointed out above, they'd have Storm's Path (Glare), Overpower (Holy), Storm's Eye (or a DoT that has the same timer - if anything Eye is easier to manage since it's more flexible about overcapping since you can stack it twice to 60 sec, but this would be your Dia), Beast Gauge (Lily Gauge), Fell Cleave or Decimate (probably Decimate but with Fell Cleave's animation - Misery), Upheaval or Orogony (probably Orogony - Assize), Inner Release (Presence of Mind), and Infuriate (Lucid Dreaming). They'd probably also have Tomahawk and Onslaught as utility spells like how WHM has Thin Air and Aquaveil as utility abilities.

From what I understand, this is what you want to happen to WHM for the sake of keeping one job “accessible” for everyone.

Clearly you don't understand, then. Since I want WHM to stay the same, not to lose any abilities. And as I noted, changing WAR to be like WHM is TODAY (even if we ignore the "stay the same" would be WAR staying...the same as it is today...) would be much more interesting than you insist, and the only losses would be 1-2 in their single target combo, -2 in their aoe combo, and combining their single target and AOE oGCD and Beast Gauge skills

There might be people who want even the buff upkeep to go away, but I assure you there will be many more upset with these changes.

And show me where in "leave WHM the way it is RIGHT NOW" one can infer "remove Dia, even though WHM has it RIGHT NOW"? Though, again, Storm's Eye (WAR's upkeep buff) is actually more flexible than WHM's Dia since you can apply it twice to extend the duration to 60 sec. Imagine if WHM could use Dia 2x without overcapping or it being a DPS loss?

SAM players don’t stop complaining about Kaiten and rightfully so.

You got the first half of that correct...

White mages are not lovey-dovey care bears.

They kinda are. Current day WHM's are almost exclusive Padjali who grant succor to the injured and heartsick, and are largely the CNJ version of aristocracy.

Amdapor had a war with Mhach in which Mhach was the aggressor. While the Amdapori were hardly guiltless in the war (they captured and interrogated Nymian SCHs to try to learn their healing arts, though the game doesn't really specify what kind of tactics they used), but they were largely seen as the guardian nation to the non-Mhach minor nations of the 5th Age (of which there were 12, one with each of the Twelve as their patron deity). This would be akin to saying the French or British were evil for fighting the Germans. But, that war broke the world, and the Elementals sealed White (and Black) Magic, as did most of the general public persecute anyone who attempted to practice it. While modern Conjury has a slight edge to it (again, literally no one is advocating removing Glare and Holy from WHM...), the main focus is, as the Job page describes:

"White magic, the arcane art of succor, was conceived eras past that the world might know comfort. Alas, man began perverting its powers for self-gain, and by his wickedness brought about the Sixth Umbral catastrophe. Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals.
Those who would walk the path of the white mage are healers without peer, possessed of the power to deliver comrades from the direst of afflictions—even the icy grip of death itself."

That is the official lore: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/whitemage/

Show me where it says "...and are gods of destruction, rending foes with powerful attack magicks"?

Are these pure-hearted healers upset seeing that the lore of the game does not support their ideology?

See above: The lore supports their ideology.

That said - again, literally no one is advocating for removing WHM attack spells THAT IT HAS RIGHT NOW. So you need a new straw man.

That kit I described does not take away any core heals that WHM has.

1) Where did I say it does?

2) I said that's part of the problem - WHM is one of the few Jobs that doesn't have too many buttons/button bloat (despite having some essentially duplicate spells); it would need some removed to make room for your damage spells.

The healers that like to say “I don’t want to do more! I want to heal! I’m good at healing!”

WHO - in THIS discussion - is saying that?

will not lose anything should there be a mini-DPS rotation waiting for them.

That is a lie and even you have to know it. An outright lie. Right now, they're able to clear content - content you likely don't WANT them to be able to clear. Unless the difference in DPS between doing the rotation correctly and pressing only Water 3 is 0.0000001% (so that there's literally no point in even having it), they would no longer be able to clear things with their current rotation/playstyle, which WOULD be taking something from them.

You may wish/want/believe they SHOULD have that content taken from them, but don't lie about it.

Do these players seriously get a heart attack the moment they see more than 3 damage buttons on their kit?

Do players like you get one the moment you see a kit with only 3?

Personally, I think they should stop adventuring given we see much more horrific things than that.

So you believe there should be no nurses, doctors, or other medical personnel in the world unless they enjoy shooting people as well as treating gunshot wounds?

You talk like more DPS buttons will take away something from healers, but what exactly?

If you take away something someone has, it doesn't matter WHY they want it. What matters is that you're taking it from them. Moreover, if you have a way to get what you want without doing so - e.g. you get THREE healers to yourself - then you wanting to take theirs as well is kind of selfish. Why do you insist on taking it away? Why is it so grievous for you to NOT have all four healers to your liking?

Healers that want to only heal will continue only using heals.

You can't help yourself but to strawman, can you?

Healers that want to do better will use the damage rotation to make their presence more useful in a fight.

People already try to do the best they can. Demanding more from them when you have other options is just petty, childish, and selfish.

It'd be one thing if you and I were arguing and I was saying leave ALL four healers as they are and you were begging to have AT LEAST ONE changed to suit you.

But that isn't the argument.

That's the exist opposite of our argument.

Our argument is to change THREE of them, 75% of them, the TOTAL NUMBER of healers that have existed in all of FFXIV's history until last December (2021), to suit you and having ONLY ONE that does not.

Not...that it matters in the end. The Devs aren't going to do that, and that much is clear at this point.

.

You can bask in your 12 people agreeing with you, btw, but maybe you guys should stop with the hyperbole and strawman.

Either argue the topics under discussion with the people discussing them or don't, but don't make up arguments while ignoring those present because those present aren't as weak as the ones you want to fight instead.

[AmiableApkallu]

That is the official lore: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/whitemage/

Show me where it says "...and are gods of destruction, rending foes with powerful attack magicks"?

Remember, as a White Mage, your soul stone derives from A-Towa-Cant; you don't follow in the traditional Padjali mold:

A-Towa grew to become an accomplished Hearer, but soon grew dissatisfied with the role—he came to realize that to truly protect the Twelveswood he must cleanse the source of impurities beyond the confines of the forest.

Not a "god of destruction", but still, someone who realizes that healing the world sometimes calls for a more active approach.

More broadly, the healer role in Final Fantasy has never been one of pure healing. The White Mage of the original Final Fantasy dealt respectable damage with their hammer. Rosa of FFIV could deal damage against zombies using standard Cure spells and had a special attack ability when wielding a bow and arrow. Yuna of FFX wielded summons of sufficient power that the game could design a dungeon where she was the only party member.

I'm not a fan of rotations as they're typically implemented in this game, but I do think that each of the healer jobs needs a well-defined damage-dealing identity. If this were an old-school console Final Fantasy game, what would be the special menu items be for each job?

[AmiableApkallu]

No job in the game is excused from not having to deal damage. As such, I think that every job MUST have an engaging rotation, whether it’s simple or complex. Players must be taught the weight of doing something right or wrong.

Fair enough. But I'm going to assert that aside from BLM, and maybe RDM, there's not single job with a rotation that teaches you the "weight of doing something right or wrong."

I've leveled up every DPS job. I know I've played them non-optimally (hit combos, build resource, mash everything else on cooldown or when it lights up); I've likely even played some of them outright badly. Between cast times and resource management, BLM is the only one where I've found myself in a definite fail states (Enochian dropped, at zero MP but can't get myself into Umbral Ice without MP…).

Merely doing less damage than optimal doesn't teach you anything in a game that doesn't quantify your DPS for you and where "real" DPS checks are limited to certain content.