How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[T-Owl]

I don't think they can be trusted to design jobs in general.

Melee are lucky regarding balance because SE has a strange idea that positionals and melee uptime are the height of skill and worth an additional 10% dps, but tanks and dps in general are poorly designed in my opinion and sliding downhill rapidly towards the bottom of the pit to join healers. Tanks have always been watered down melee dps with a few cooldowns and dps boil down to variations of 1-2-3 and oGCD's to fill the gaps for the sake of something to press. The latest dps additions of "aoe version of your single target oGCD" and "button that you can press when you use a 2m cooldown" are uninspired and lazy and things like Lego SMN and Kaiten removal are a bad sign.

SE have always had a tiny job design team and the game has been expanding expansion after expansion. It's caused them to fall behind. Healers have generally been the corner they cut and pushed to the side to reduce workload, but now even dps and tanks are stretching them thin. They pushed AST and DRG to 7.0 because the playerbase expects good quality and they simply can't keep up with that anymore. They have issues that they've ignored for years.

I feel like again Blizz actually came up with a good way of keeping Tank identity intact, engaging and unique after moving away from threat management with the introduction of personal mitigation, which gives tanks different modes of how they deal with incoming damage which is an active part of their Rotation, like DKs timing their Death Strikes to keep themselves healed, Warriors trying to keep up Shield Block while having to make decission on whether to spend their ressources offensively and defensively, Paladins having to make decissions between using their holy power for shield of the righteous or selfheal and of course Monks managing their stagger meter. Playing a DK is a totally differenrt experience than a Monk, the one is defensively weaker and has their healthbar spiking alot more but in turn being able to heal themselves up again while Monk is pretty smooth, postponing part of their incoming damage into a dot instead.

[AmiableApkallu]

I am a bit curious, though. Why is WHM your preferred healer? Aesthetics?

...

And, as I noted above, WHM has a (slightly higher, but still) similar APM to BLM. In effect, WHM right now is arguably the Healer version of what BLM is to DPS - and what WAR is to Tanks.

For me, it's not about actions per minute or a rotation per se. From another thread:

The inspiration from BLM that I had in mind was the Umbral Ice/Astral Fire mechanic.

You can be an Ice mage. It's safe. It's cozy. But even at a casual level, a simple reading of your tool tips strongly suggests that this is not how you should be playing. The real game is, "How much Fire can I greed?" You can play it on easy mode (go back to Ice while you still have thousands of MP). You can play it on hard mode (drain every last bit of MP and hope you timed it right so that you have a free Ice cast). Either way, it's a risk/reward game with a goal that you can aspire towards.

It doesn't copy to a healer exactly as-is, but I think the spirit could.

The spirit being an interplay between two facets of your kit that creates a risk/reward system and a goal to aim for. For BLM, it's ice vs. fire. For WHM (and healers in general), it's healing vs. damage.

You can be a heal-bot. It's safe. It's cozy. But something in the kit should nudge you towards the idea that, at least for some moments, the best thing you can do to help end combat sooner rather than later is to deal damage yourself.

Not knowing anything about MMOs, I started on CNJ/WHM because my preferred combat style is to win the war of attrition: I'll accept dealing damage more slowly if it means being able to keep the party alive longer/indefinitely. The problem is that in reality, the players themselves start building up stacks of debuffs such as "fatigue" and "impatience." Combined with mostly-scripted damage, what you get is a combat system where healers need to deal damage.

As for why WHM… aesthetics, mainly. Ironically, it is also, in my opinion, the only healer that currently has a damage dealing identity: Holy. Unfortunately, it applies only to trash mobs, but still, it's a subject of memes.

[Tiramu]

For me, it's not about actions per minute or a rotation per se. From another thread:



The spirit being an interplay between two facets of your kit that creates a risk/reward system and a goal to aim for. For BLM, it's ice vs. fire. For WHM (and healers in general), it's healing vs. damage.

You can be a heal-bot. It's safe. It's cozy. But something in the kit should nudge you towards the idea that, at least for some moments, the best thing you can do to help end combat sooner rather than later is to deal damage yourself.

... snip for length ...

As for why WHM… aesthetics, mainly. Ironically, it is also, in my opinion, the only healer that currently has a damage dealing identity: Holy. Unfortunately, it applies only to trash mobs, but still, it's a subject of memes.

I largely agree with this, WHM is the quintessential FF healer, so of course its going to appeal to a wider audience of players and having a lower point of entry makes sense.

However, this doesnt mean it cant have a higher ceiling or other healers shouldnt be more mechanically complex. All jobs should have different playstyles and varying difficulty levels.

I dont think healing is easy or boring, this depends on your skills, your familiarity with the content and the skill of the overall group.

While Ive not participated in really high end content yet, Ive played a wide variety of content with multiple jobs to a higher level and I'd say healing can be both one of the hardest and easiest roles to play. I think this might be part of the healer problem, because you dont want to push average or casual players out of the role. But is also why its so important to give roles higher ceilings and more advanced job options.


An idea for WHM specifically:

Split out basic DPS spells. Maybe split Stone/Glare and Aero/Dia out so they are unique DPS spells with single and AOE versions across 3 levels. Obviously adjust Aero and Dias added effects to make them unique. I'd also like to see a few party buffs.

Adjust afflatus so the blood lilly is available as soon as the gauge is unlocked, each afflatus growing the blood lilly by one point as it does. But, have 3 dps skills that consume 1, 2 or 3 levels of the blood lilly.

I'd then tie this together with a magic balance gauge similar to BLM, using DPS swings the gauge to DPS mode, increasing damage potency but reducing healing, while using healing swings it to Healer mode which does the opposite. Basically a light version that contrasts BLM.

When in full tier 3 DPS mode, the spells are comparable to a DPS but healing is reduced a lot, and the top tier spells capable to drawing enimity. So switching into DPS mode comes with risk if you need heavy healing or drawing aggro.

More average players get their safe healing job, but you have a slightly higher tactical ceiling and DPS options for more skilled players.

[Renathras]

I'd then tie this together with a magic balance gauge similar to BLM, using DPS swings the gauge to DPS mode, increasing damage potency but reducing healing, while using healing swings it to Healer mode which does the opposite. Basically a light version that contrasts BLM.

They had this in ARR and HW (it was called Cleric Stance) and it was removed because it was something that on paper may look good but in practice meant a lot of wipes if the healer was in "DPS phase" when healing was needed. It works for a DPS because DPS Jobs don't have a second essential task. Their task is "Do damage". Tanks and healers each have a second essential task they must achieve for the party to succeed, which are mitigate damage (in theory, hold threat, but that's automatic at this point) for tanks and heal the party for healers. When BLM goes into Ice for several casts, it's not going to immediately cause the boss to enrage and wipe the party. If a healer is caught in damage stance (higher damage but lower healing) and the boss goes into a high damage phase OR some of your party members screw up and need emergency healing, people die and wipes happen.

They also used to have this with tanks (threat increase and damage reduction tank stances vs damage increase stances) which weren't AS detrimental (a tank in damage stance using CDs could get their defense high enough to still survive big hits), but were removed for a similar reason.

Because both of these things were in the game and removed because they were seen as bad (and incidentally generated a lot of toxicity), it's unlikely they'll be re-added. Balancing an essential task (survivability/healing) against another (damage) tends to not be good design in practice, even if it seems it could be on paper. Again, BLM in Ice stance (for 3-5 GCDs) isn't causing the party to wipe. Healer in damage stance during the wrong time can cause party wipes. I think that's the distinction there.

EDIT:

So we have a lean to more sage and scholar unfortunately. And although all healer design needs a change IMHO, they should consider mitigation is wanted MORE moving forward and balance the healers accordingly if they are going to be working within this shield vs pure healer concept.

Wait, what?

Meta has been AST/SCH since EW launch outside of a week or so here or there. And has been meta for all of ShB and SB before it.

I agree that the split didn't work out - so much so I think WHM needs a 60 sec CD ability (tack Proshell onto Confession stacks, easy fix there) and AST should get Noct back because...seriously, why not? It was more distinct as a barrier healer than SGE is to SCH anyway - but the meta is clearly in favor of AST.

.

Melee are lucky regarding balance because SE has a strange idea that positionals and melee uptime are the height of skill and worth an additional 10% dps, but tanks and dps in general are poorly designed in my opinion and sliding downhill rapidly towards the bottom of the pit to join healers. Tanks have always been watered down melee dps with a few cooldowns and dps boil down to variations of 1-2-3 and oGCD's to fill the gaps for the sake of something to press. The latest dps additions of "aoe version of your single target oGCD" and "button that you can press when you use a 2m cooldown" are uninspired and lazy and things like Lego SMN and Kaiten removal are a bad sign.

I don't entirely agree with your point as a whole, but how far can we carry this?

A Rogue in WoW works by building and spending Combo points, but in practice on boss fights, this translates to playing much like something like RPR where you build a resource and spend the resource. BLM (and WoW Arcane Mage) play with a similar ping-pong mechanic between burst and regen periods of their rotations. SMN (reminds me of Wrath and Cata era Ret Paladins in WoW) operates on a "It's off CD? Well then hit it!" mentality, which WAR operates SOMEWHAT similar to (if one isn't trying to hyper optimize, anyway). How is PLD's 1-2-3 1-2-4-5-5-5 1-2-3 1-2-4-5-5 1-2-3 6-6-6-6 7-7-7-7 just another variation of 1-2-3 and some oGCDs?

There's a point where you can zoom out to orbit, and then keep zooming out to where you can see the whole solar system, at which point every spot on the surface of the Earth will look the same as a kind of bluish haze...but that doesn't mean they're at all the same. Everything looks the same if you zoom out far enough, and every MMO combat system could be described as "variations of 1-2-3 with some CD abilities thrown in" if we go to that level of zoom, I think.

T-Owl says that WoW made the tanks distinct, but their mitigations are like FFXIV - different flavors of the same thing. "Choose between" Shield of the Righteous and the Holy heal on Protection Paladin isn't so different from a WAR choosing between Bloodwhetting or Nascent. The main difference is that FFXIV active mitigations tend to employ both together. And the distinction between WoW Prot Paly and tanky DK is kind of matched in FFXIV's between PLD and DRK - Blackest Night and Shelltron make a similar contrast. So does Heart of Corundum and Bloodwhetting. The idea that WoW's class design is so distinct but FFXIV's is samey doesn't really hold up when you look at them closely at all. Or even not at all - I play WAR and GNB and have PLD at 90; they all play distinct. RDM and SMN and BLM play nothing alike one another. MCH, NIN, and MNK (my other 90s) also don't play anything alike each other.

[T-Owl]

They had this in ARR and HW (it was called Cleric Stance) and it was removed because it was something that on paper may look good but in practice meant a lot of wipes if the healer was in "DPS phase" when healing was needed. It works for a DPS because DPS Jobs don't have a second essential task. Their task is "Do damage". Tanks and healers each have a second essential task they must achieve for the party to succeed, which are mitigate damage (in theory, hold threat, but that's automatic at this point) for tanks and heal the party for healers. When BLM goes into Ice for several casts, it's not going to immediately cause the boss to enrage and wipe the party. If a healer is caught in damage stance (higher damage but lower healing) and the boss goes into a high damage phase OR some of your party members screw up and need emergency healing, people die and wipes happen.

They also used to have this with tanks (threat increase and damage reduction tank stances vs damage increase stances) which weren't AS detrimental (a tank in damage stance using CDs could get their defense high enough to still survive big hits), but were removed for a similar reason.

Because both of these things were in the game and removed because they were seen as bad (and incidentally generated a lot of toxicity), it's unlikely they'll be re-added. Balancing an essential task (survivability/healing) against another (damage) tends to not be good design in practice, even if it seems it could be on paper. Again, BLM in Ice stance (for 3-5 GCDs) isn't causing the party to wipe. Healer in damage stance during the wrong time can cause party wipes. I think that's the distinction there.

I mean, lets be honest, the history of optimization in this game has been so far tanks and healers doing anything in their power to circumvent their additional role as much as possible in favor of doing dps. DPS stance tanking was a common think back when it was a thing and we see how insanely high dps uptime is for healers, so at this point dps and healers are just roles that exchange complexities and button bloat in their dps rotation for additional responsibilities with a small uptime of having to engage with them, only that healers toolkits are not reflective of how much time they spend performing a dps role compared to their side-function. FF14 just has no dedicated healers on a level of wow, where a high percentage of your casts in traditional healer classes are focussed on healing the party, with distinct toolkits making performing this primary role distinct.

[Renathras]

I mean, lets be honest, the history of optimization in this game has been so far tanks and healers doing anything in their power to circumvent their additional role as much as possible in favor of doing dps. DPS stance tanking was a common think back when it was a thing and we see how insanely high dps uptime is for healers, so at this point dps and healers are just roles that exchange complexities and button bloat in their dps rotation for additional responsibilities with a small uptime of having to engage with them, only that healers toolkits are not reflective of how much time they spend performing a dps role compared to their side-function. FF14 just has no dedicated healers on a level of wow, where a high percentage of your casts in traditional healer classes are focussed on healing the party, with distinct toolkits making performing this primary role distinct.

Which is why they don't work. They present an illusion of choice.

Also, healers in DPS stance wasn't the common thing. It kind of was for SCH, but was much less used by AST and especially WHM. Back in ARR, WHMs were dedicated healers of that type. In ShB, it's kind of drifting back that way due to Lilies and how they work as GCD heals, but it's kind of a half-position. HW healer balance was just...stupidly bad. SB was horribad for WHM.

[Katish]

A big issue I see with healers atm is the whole concept of shield and pure healing, not sure why they even thought this was a good direction but here we are.
Regardless, the shield healers can provide both strong mit and healing, their counterparts the pure healers provide little mitigation with the exception of Neutral Sect. But here's the thing, there is no trade off because people want mit more than healing and the dmg of white mage and astrologian are behind in their counterparts. So we have a lean to more sage and scholar unfortunately. And although all healer design needs a change IMHO, they should consider mitigation is wanted MORE moving forward and balance the healers accordingly if they are going to be working within this shield vs pure healer concept.

[Heroman3003]

I see everyone asking for more buttons for healers MORE BUTTONS, then I open the game, look at my 3 full hotbars of spells, 90% of which are only useful in content I never want to do (savages and ultimates) and go "where are those MORE BUTTONS even supposed to go here? There's no room". While more engaging DPS could be fun, just slapping more buttons on currently overbloated healer classes just seems like such a non-solution that serves to bloat healers' hotbars further to no real effect beyond giving illusion of skill or engagement when the only difference is instead of pressing 1 button over and over, you now press 3 buttons in specific order over and over; while needing to bend your hand backwards to reach your other buttons at times.

[Icecylee]

Getting rid of several of the pointless healing button bloat is usually included with the idea of adding more DPS buttons, fwiw.

[AthemRyu]

I see everyone asking for more buttons for healers MORE BUTTONS, then I open the game, look at my 3 full hotbars of spells, 90% of which are only useful in content I never want to do (savages and ultimates) and go "where are those MORE BUTTONS even supposed to go here? There's no room". While more engaging DPS could be fun, just slapping more buttons on currently overbloated healer classes just seems like such a non-solution that serves to bloat healers' hotbars further to no real effect beyond giving illusion of skill or engagement when the only difference is instead of pressing 1 button over and over, you now press 3 buttons in specific order over and over; while needing to bend your hand backwards to reach your other buttons at times.

What you are saying reveals the current problem, why in every expansion we get new healing abilities while we have more than enough to do the job. We get a new skill to do the same thing which is to heal with a little twist.
In my opinion, there is a bit too much healing ability and some of them should be removed


For more dps buttons I think nobody here is asking for a 1 2 3 combo like melee has which won't make sense for gameplay based on casting.
For example, you can give the scholar a gcd dot + ogcd dot of 20sec and be able to apply both dots on a skill of 60cd then you can reset that 60cd skill with aetherflow ( This is close to what old summoner dot rotation had before endwalker) and here you have scholar having a unique rotation from other healers by only adding two skills and a twist with the rest cooldown.

Healer dps rotation should be inspired by caster dps and not 123 combos of melee dps