What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Absimiliard]

Elidibus did say "Yet even should you manage to interact with others, you will be unable to effect meaningful change."
Meaning he hard confirms that whatever we do in Elpis has no severe implications in the course of history, so we didn't really "intervene", we were just present as the events unfolded.

Bear in mind the state Elidibus sends the WoL to Elipis in. You're not even a phantom at that point, able to observe but do naught else. Emet-Selch's gift of aether amends this problem in its entirely. Through this you are in fact able to effect meaningful change.

As to your point from a prior post; this type of temporal paradox has no beginning and no end for all practical purposes. Venat is reliant on information received from the WoL to act in a manner that will preserve the timeline as it will be, but said timeline must exist for Venat to receive this information in the first place. If you've heard the phrase "the serpent eats its tail," this is one of those times you'd apply it. That aside, the implications of the WoL's death in G'raha's timeline probably weren't accounted for by the writers. Were I to theorize, however, I would say the existence of the tangential timeline the game presently takes place in was always meant to be. You might also consider how the original and current timelines presumably run identical until the exact moment they split, which would mean the WoL from the deviant timeline going back to Elpis would spare the other from preemptive deletion.

[Cassar]

Bear in mind the state Elidibus sends the WoL to Elipis in. You're not even a phantom at that point, able to observe but do naught else. Emet-Selch's gift of aether amends this problem in its entirely. Through this you are in fact able to effect meaningful change.

As to your point from a prior post; this type of temporal paradox has no beginning and no end for all practical purposes. Venat is reliant on information received from the WoL to act in a manner that will preserve the timeline as it will be, but said timeline must exist for Venat to receive this information in the first place. If you've heard the phrase "the serpent eats its tail," this is one of those times you'd apply it. That aside, the implications of the WoL's death in G'raha's timeline probably weren't accounted for by the writers. Were I to theorize, however, I would say the existence of the tangential timeline the game presently takes place in is what kept it going. It was probably always meant to be that way. You might also consider how the original and current timelines presumably run identical until the exact moment they split, which would mean the WoL from the offshoot going back to Elpis would spare the other from preemptive deletion.

Right but when Elidibus says that, he says it right after mentioning that you wouldn't be able to interact with anyone (I probably should've typed the whole quote) so, in my interpretation, what he meant was:
"Oh I'll send you in a state in which you won't be able to interact with anyone... However if, for some unknown reason, you are able to interact with anyone (which we do), you still won't be able to effect any changes"

And yeah, I mostly agree with the second paragraph of your post but I really do think that everything that happened in Elpis would've happened regardless of our intervention, and I find it hard to believe the writes wouldn't account for something so trivial such as the death of the WoL in Graha's timeline, which they made such a big deal about in Shadowbringers

[Absimiliard]

Right but when Elidibus says that, he says it right before mentioning that you wouldn't be able to interact with anyone (I probably should've typed the whole quote) so, in my interpretation, what he meant was:
"Oh I'll send you in a state in which you won't be able to interact with anyone... However if, for some unknown reason, you are able to interact with anyone (which we do), you still won't be able to effect any changes"

And yeah, I mostly agree with the second paragraph of your post but I really do think that everything that happened in Elpis would've happened regardless of our intervention, and I find it hard to believe the writes wouldn't account for something so trivial such as the death of the WoL in Graha's timeline, which they made such a big deal about in Shadowbringers

That differs greatly from my interpretation. I saw nothing anywhere in that part of the game to indicate Elidibus' statement was accounting for changes to the WoL's state brought about by the extra aether. If anything, I should think the WoL's initial inability to do anything other than move around and listen as compared to later when you are doing such things as giving Venat a detailed account of events-yet-to-come, fighting great beasts, and even becoming the one directly responsible for Aurum Vale serves as fair contrast. That last one... that was slick on the writers' part. As much misery as that place brought to players prior to its revamp, and it turns out it's our fault.

There's also Pandaemonium to consider. I'll spare spoilers, but suffice it to say what the WoL does in Pandaemonium is most definitely effecting change. The story is set up such that it outright could not take place without the WoL present, up to and including an NPC that had been tipped off as (and directly contributed) to your character's coming. It would be rather peculiar for this to be the case if the WoL could not make changes in the past. Which, incidentally, Pandaemonium is accessible only because Elidibus sent the Wol to Elpis.

To the second point: They made a big deal of it in Shadowbringers, I'll grant, but outside of that context it has become largely irrelevant. The original timeline has no bearing on its offshoot at this juncture other than whatever memories G'raha may yet retain. The original timeline likewise has no bearing on whether or not the cycle on which the game is predicated maintains itself, given what we've been shown so far. So, if that timeline is now functionally irrelevant, it's doubtful they would need to account for it. Not gonna lie, I'd love for some content to send us there even if but briefly.

[Cassar]

That differs greatly from my interpretation. I saw nothing anywhere in that part of the game to indicate Elidibus' statement was accounting for changes to the WoL's state brought about by the extra aether. If anything, I should think the WoL's initial inability to do anything other than move around and listen as compared to later when you are doing such things as giving Venat a detailed account of events-yet-to-come, fighting great beasts, and even becoming the one directly responsible for Aurum Vale serves as fair contrast. That last one... that was slick on the writers' part. As much misery as that place brought to players prior to its revamp, and it turns out it's our fault.

There's also Pandaemonium to consider. I'll spare spoilers, but suffice it to say what the WoL does in Pandaemonium is most definitely effecting change. The story is set up such that it outright could not take place without the WoL present, up to and including an NPC that had been tipped off as (and directly contributed) to your character's coming. It would be rather peculiar for this to be the case if the WoL could not make changes in the past. Which, incidentally, Pandaemonium is accessible only because Elidibus sent the Wol to Elpis.

To the second point: They made a big deal of it in Shadowbringers, I'll grant, but outside of that context it has become largely irrelevant. The original timeline has no bearing on its offshoot at this juncture other than whatever memories G'raha may yet retain. The original timeline likewise has no bearing on whether or not the cycle on which the game is predicated maintains itself, given what we've been shown so far. So, if that timeline is now functionally irrelevant, it's doubtful they would need to account for it. Not gonna lie, I'd love for some content to send us there even if but briefly.

So to summarize: Zodiark and Hydaelyn do exist in Graha's timeline even though the WoL never went to Elpis there. Therefore if the story of Endwalker is that we were the ones that caused Hydaelyn because of our intervention in Elpis, then that would be a plot hole - and so I really want to believe that we didn't cause any meaningful change in Elpis.

When it comes to Pandaemonium... Yeah, it's true that what we're doing is most likely effecting change, but I would prefer to wait until the story of that is finished before commenting on it for sure. I think here's where the fan theories come into play.

[Lauront]

Don't forget that, as per Yoshi in the Q&A, it is a valid reading that Venat did all she could to preserve the timeline. Although I doubt they will ever give an answer as to the specifics of what's really going on here, the fact that she would need to do this on such a reading suggests that your travel back to Elpis could, in theory, cause the timeline to differ, but for her efforts (and Emet's as per his comments about her needing him to tie it all together for her.) Personally, I consider it rather implausible that she could account for so many variables that could potentially alter it and prevent them, but they do intend for this to be believable as an interpretation so... I guess that "all-powerful being" line is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I really wish they hadn't involved time travel in all this. It just creates so many headaches. The only thing which would've redeemed it for me is if they had incorporated an AU where things ended better than they did for the ancients. As it stands? I'm not particularly impressed by how they've used it to explain various major plot elements that are central to the 1.0-6.0 arc.

[Absimiliard]

So to summarize: Zodiark and Hydaelyn do exist in Graha's timeline even though the WoL never went to Elpis there. Therefore if the story of Endwalker is that we were the ones that caused Hydaelyn because of our intervention in Elpis, then that would be a plot hole - and so I really want to believe that we didn't cause any meaningful change in Elpis.

Not necessarily. Imagine you take a bunch of twine and start laying it on the ground in a line. Now say somewhere along that line you decide to split it so you can run two lines parallel to one another. These two lines are still one before the split, yes? If you then grab twine at the starting point and give it a tug, you'll find the entire thing is yanked instead of just one of the two split off segments. You might also consider the example of igniting the twine at the starting point. That flame will in all likelihood consume all of it, not just one of the two lines you've made.

In other words, the WoL from the deviant timeline going back to Elpis could also maintain the original timeline despite them having died in it. They do after all share the same "root," if you will. Through this the predestination paradox remains intact, and the 8UC timeline continues on to whatever future awaits it after the death of its greatest hero while "our" timeline follows its path. In all probability the split in the timelines is part of the paradox anyway, which if true would make it a necessary brick in the road leading the WoL to Elpis in the first place.

Temporal paradoxes are generally obnoxious by default, but dealing with a causal loop and some aspects of quantum multiverse theory at the same time just really turns that knob up to 11.

[Cassar]

I think I would have preferred it if going to Elpis created a divergent timeline and we defeat the Elpis Hermes and Elpis Meteion in Ktisis Hyperboreia and save the ancients in the Elpis timeline but our timeline Meteion is still a danger. Elpis Venat does whatever an Elpis Venat does but apologizes for the actions (or lackthereof) of Eorzean Venat/Hydaelyn. So we return to our Eorzean timeline with newfound knowledge on how to deal with Eorzean Meteion and confront Hydaelyn on her inaction in the past and she gives whatever her reason is for her actions/inactions and tests us in battle like how it is currently.

Isn't this still a possibility? Is there any confirmation that the Venat we met in Elpis is the same Hydaelyn we fight against in present day?

Remember the Y'shtola quote:
"The implications of temporal magicks are not entirely understood, and so we cannot assume that our Hydaelyn and the Venat you met in Elpis are one and the same. Nevertheless, due to Her intrinsic qualities as an all-powerful being, I'd wager that Hydaelyn possesses the knowledge we seek."

Not necessarily. Imagine you take a bunch of twine and start laying it on the ground in a line. Now say somewhere along that line you decide to split it so you can run two lines parallel to one another. These two lines are still one before the split, yes? If you then grab twine at the starting point and give it a tug, you'll find the entire thing is yanked instead of just one of the two split off segments. You might also consider the example of igniting the twine at the starting point. That flame will in all likelihood consume all of it, not just one of the two lines you've made.

And yeah, I understand what you mean here... Temporal paradoxes truly are complicated to deal with, but you've convinced me of the Graha tia thing. But I'm STILL not convinced on the Elidibus thing! I truly believe he meant what I said earlier, he even goes as far as to explain the reason why we're not capable of altering the course of time "For the reality you wish to save - the reality to which you must return - exists as a result of the Final Days. You cannot reshape the past to undo the tragedies of the present. Cannot unmake the sorrow and suffering fated to come."

[Absimiliard]

And yeah, I understand what you mean here... Temporal paradoxes truly are complicated to deal with, but you've convinced me of the Graha tia thing. But I'm STILL not convinced on the Elidibus thing! I truly believe he meant what I said earlier, he even goes as far as to explain the reason why we're not capable of altering the course of time "For the reality you wish to save - the reality to which you must return - exists as a result of the Final Days. You cannot reshape the past to undo the tragedies of the present. Cannot unmake the sorrow and suffering fated to come."

And yet we've got these little gems from the conversation just before Elidibus has you prep the tower for opening the gate. Pardon the poor quality. I'm having connection issues out the wazoo at the moment, so I yoinked it from a random YouTube video instead of just watching the cutscene again in-game.



Even the man himself recalls the WoL from Elpis. For someone that couldn't make any changes to the timeline, they certainly seem to have left a lasting impact. I should think this would also answer your question about whether or not Venat is also the same one. It's already been established the Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus encountered by the WoL in Elpis are the same, and Elidibus clearly retains at least fragments of memories of their having met. If this is the case, then it basically can't be a different Venat. For his part, it was this memory which motivated Elidibus to sacrifice his very existence so the WoL could make the journey to Elpis. The act didn't just kill him -- it unmade him. He's every bit as permadead as Venat so far as I am aware.

As for Elidibus' comments about making changes; they could just as easily be interpreted as a warning. For if you were to make changes in such a way as to prevent the sundering or otherwise change any circumstances leading up to the present, you may not have a world to return to at all. Or if you did, it might not be yours. ....Or you might simply cease to exist, which would by default undo whatever you did. Luckily, the predestination paradox is there to prevent you from ruining everything. Then we've the previously discussed option of him simply not realizing Emet-Selch was going to reinforce your aether and thereby give you the ability to meaningfully interact with the world of the past.

There's a veritable mountain of evidence in favor of this indeed being a causal loop. While it's entirely possible Yoshi P. might pop up at some point to dismiss this, doing so would rather handily undermine the entirety of Endwalker.

[Lauront]

Isn't this still a possibility? Is there any confirmation that the Venat we met in Elpis is the same Hydaelyn we fight against in present day?

Remember the Y'shtola quote:
"The implications of temporal magicks are not entirely understood, and so we cannot assume that our Hydaelyn and the Venat you met in Elpis are one and the same. Nevertheless, due to Her intrinsic qualities as an all-powerful being, I'd wager that Hydaelyn possesses the knowledge we seek."

Before you depart Elpis, she theorises that there will be a conjunction of timelines. When you encounter her during the trial, she claims the timelines have now converged and refers back to the encounter in Elpis and the question she posed to you there. The answer Yoshi gave during the Q&A on the topic of timelines was this:

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. What happened?

A: Well, I think the most important thing is that you can come up with your own theories for this one. In my personal interpretation however is that the timelines were always the same. Another interpretation you can have is that maybe Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure the timeline didn’t go awry. Therefore the Warrior of Light was always acting in accordance with this plan of Venat so the timeline that we are aware of didn’t change when we went back to the affected. I personally think that when we went to Mare Lamentorium and we first met Argos and Argos really took to us when we were able to ride it, that's basically the proof that at that point, the timeline is going accordingly. We are adding all these stuff to New Game+ in 6.1 so if you’re interested in this I suggest you replay it and think about these questions when you’re playing it.

And I think this "another interpretation" is supported by the below as well:

Emet-Selch: So, here I am, Venat. I suppose you needed me to tie it all together, these frayed threads of our history─but knowing you, I suspect there's a joke in it too. Oh yes, I can imagine you gloating over my forgetfulness.

Bearing in mind she deliberately engineered Emet's escape:

Q: I am interested to know how unsundered Ascians such as Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch avoided being kicked into 14 pieces by Hydaelyn.

A: As you think back to the text towards the end Emet-Selch did imply that Venat let him live unsundered. In fact Venat did intentionally leave a tiny floor in her Sundering attack - a crack that Emet-Selch can wiggle through. Sort of like…yes it was a powerful attack but intentionally chose to do it in this fashion. So we said this in the actual game as well which is when Hydaelyn did the attack, it was a really strong one. It was delivered at the limit of her power so she couldn’t really fine tune it. So as intentional as this was when she did that big massive light attack that sundered the world, she couldn’t guarantee that Emet-Selch would live and she was kind of making a gamble. In fact what happened was, at the time that Hydaelyn performed the sundering, Emet-Selch was with Lahabrea and Elidibus (the time he was already out of being Zodiark core so he’s a little bit different than his original but nevertheless he was there) so they ended up joining forces, and escaped to the rift without being Sundered. You may recall if you read Tales of the Shadows that Elidibus, when he came out of Zodiark he ended up losing some of his memories as well as some parts of himself and that’s sort of the point in Patch 5.3 and when he “dies” you sort of know that he lost a lot in the process as well just like Emet-Selch. So yeah, basically they worked together at that time and escaped being Sundered.

While they could come in and say no, it's not the same one, I think all the evidence we have is pointing to them being one and the same.

[Cassar]

Yeah, you guys make good points, it's hard to argue against it. I was trying to convince myself it wasn't going to be a loop because in my head I don't think causal loops make sense but then again I don't know that much about quantum physics so who knows.

One thing that truly bothers me is: Was Venat's conviction of her ideals truly her own or was it all because of the WoL? Did she really mean it when she said all those things about humanity not being able to thrive unless we accept that pain and suffering are part of life, or was she just trying to follow the "right" timeline based on what she knows? Was Hydaelyn only created because we told her about it?

And if he answer to any of these is "No, her convictions were indeed her own and she truly believes in what she said" then what difference did the WoL really make?