Healing Spells You Do Not Mind Being Removed in PvE

[Rilifane]

we have phelgma and toxicon..so that does give something for sages to play around with lol. Sch is the most boring healer and is the only healer that is trash at big pulls. I can handle big pulls no problem with ast/whm or even sage , anytime i try big pull with sch its just a stress wipe mess , pre casting is boring and unfun i love instant things. least even spamming E diag can work better to keep tank up (well dark night) as really I dont need to press no heals on warrior and maybe only 1 to 2 heals on a pld/gnb. sage is actually awarded more for their ogc using compare to sch . sch has poor ways for mp regen, aether flow every 60 seconds or luci? mean while 5 of sages heals is giving 700mp back, which makes me press lucid dreaming very very less compared to the whm /sch(ast already is busted for always having near infinite mp so I cant count them in) and kerachole makes sacred soil a JOKE , kera itself is so busted that it with taro/druo is all or ixo is all it needs to handle any needing heals. meaning while too lastly sch with their joke pixie pets that locks sch out of their kit? who finds a job entertaining when your punished for using your pet and get lock out of most of your skills.

SCH is weaker in terms of dps than SGE in dungeons because Phlegma and Toxikon fishing prepull outclasses the 10 higher potency on Art of War even if the SCH also uses AF on ED.

And when it comes to healing/ mitigation they're very much on par.
Where SGE would use Kera, Physis, Tauro, Haima, Panhaima and Krasis a SCH uses Soil, Whispering Dawn, Excog, Aetherpact, Seraph and Protraction. Soil is even 100 potency stronger than Kera since ground targets get an instant tick upon placing them. All in all, SGE and SCH are very similar for healing dungeon pulls and if you can do it on one you should be able to do it on the other because many buttons should even be on the exact same keybind since they function exactly the same. Pneuma and Expedient are the only skills that are noticeably different.

Dissipation at the end of the pull for stronger precast Adlo + 3 free stacks isn't rocket science to use, you're not supposed to use it midpull. But even then, if you need to GCD heal spam then Dissipation heal buff alone easily offsets the lost Embrace casts in addition to giving you 3 stacks for healing.
AF restores 20% at once, SGE 7% every 20s. So SCH is only 1% behind SGE per minute which is nowhere near "poor ways for mp regen". This sounds more like you just lack practice and haven't thought about proper keybinds yet because the class isn't the problem here.

[Archwizard]

SGE has multiple abilities to augment its casts (Eukrasia, Zoe, etc) in order to tie in the flavor of a Mix-based Chemist healer. So while there is some temptation to add some Eukrasia-like effects to other jobs in order to save on trimming, it is the job's unique gimmick much like AST's cards or SCH's faeries.

However, what if a SCH had a stance system? Not just augmenting the next cast, but causing a toggled shift in their abilities; not like AST's old sects, but something they swap on the fly. I think it would fit the "tactician" job to be forced to switch as the tactical situation changes.

For instance, making a stance (Deployment Tactics?) that turns single-target GCDs into AoE attacks and raidwide heals? Or causing your active faerie to alter the function of your Aetherflow actions, with an instant swap between them?

At the very least it could clear some button bloat, and depending on which actions are affected, it wouldn't mean making SCH play like SGE while still being additive to the existing playstyle rather than reductive.

[TheDustyOne]

However, what if a SCH had a stance system? Not just augmenting the next cast, but causing a toggled shift in their abilities; not like AST's old sects, but something they swap on the fly. I think it would fit the "tactician" job to be forced to switch as the tactical situation changes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this something that FFXI Scholar would do with Light Arts and Dark Arts? It would make sense to tie it into what fairy we could have available, a healing stance that gives us our shields and would summon Eos, and a DPS stance that summons Selene and gives us our stronger DoTs, so long as we don't need to be in one stance at all times to play optimally it could be pretty fun.

[Renathras]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this something that FFXI Scholar would do with Light Arts and Dark Arts? It would make sense to tie it into what fairy we could have available, a healing stance that gives us our shields and would summon Eos, and a DPS stance that summons Selene and gives us our stronger DoTs, so long as we don't need to be in one stance at all times to play optimally it could be pretty fun.

I get now their goal was to move away from AST stances, but I felt in ShB that they should have made Eos/Selene like stances for SCH. I was thinking pure/barrier (e.g. one perma-activates Emergency Tactics for Succor and Adlo making them strong Medica/Cure2 versions, and the other would make them shield like normal and maybe make Indom and Lustrate apply shields as well), if not make Emergency Tactics itself said stance. But they went the other way and just dropped AST stances in EW anyway.

Reading about FFXI SCH, it seems an interesting mix. Kinda funny that ARR WHM was the one with Cleric (from CNJ) as opposed to SCH (from ACN), but either way...

[Archwizard]

I get now their goal was to move away from AST stances

But they went the other way and just dropped AST stances in EW anyway.

I wouldn't say AST stances were true "stances" however; they were only positioned there to make AST "flexible" so that you didn't double-up on shield or regen specialists.
You couldn't switch Sects while in combat, so they forced you to commit to one or the other based on your party composition making the other one just eat a slot for the entire instance... and because Regens stack while Nocturnal Sect debuffed your MP economy and didn't restore as much health (nor did it come with an Emergency Tactics equivalent to turn the barriers into burst healing, or most of Scholar's superior barrier tools for that matter), you were better off using Diurnal Sect anyway regardless of your co-healer, besides a few niche instances or encounters.
It basically made Nocturnal Sect a dead button and the Sect divisions pointless, contributing to its removal. That, and the introduction of a dedicated barrier healer outmoding it while allowing the devs to fix Savage parties to one of each division of healer without worrying about ASTs trying to game the system.

When I say "stances", I mean more like what Tanks have: toggle an effect within the encounter as you tag-in or -out of a given position, based on your needs right now.

Which is why I used Deployment Tactics as an example: toggle between your single-target and AoE skills, both offensive and defensive. During most dungeon pulls, you'll want Adloquium (stance off) and Art of War (stance on); within most boss fights, you'll prefer Succor (stance on) and Ruin II (stance off) instead, meaning there would be ample reason to toggle frequently to suit your needs during each encounter.
... Plus you could also argue for AoE equivalents of Physick (meaning no need for Emergency Tactics if they just buff Physick) or possibly even Bio (Miasma, anyone?) without increasing the button count.

[IceBlueNinja]

I wouldn't say AST stances were true "stances" however; they were only positioned there to make AST "flexible" so that you didn't double-up on shield or regen specialists.
You couldn't switch Sects while in combat, so they forced you to commit to one or the other based on your party composition making the other one just eat a slot for the entire instance... and because Regens stack while Nocturnal Sect debuffed your MP economy and didn't restore as much health (nor did it come with an Emergency Tactics equivalent to turn the barriers into burst healing, or most of Scholar's superior barrier tools for that matter), you were better off using Diurnal Sect anyway regardless of your co-healer, besides a few niche instances or encounters.
It basically made Nocturnal Sect a dead button and the Sect divisions pointless, contributing to its removal. That, and the introduction of a dedicated barrier healer outmoding it while allowing the devs to fix Savage parties to one of each division of healer without worrying about ASTs trying to game the system.

When I say "stances", I mean more like what Tanks have: toggle an effect within the encounter as you tag-in or -out of a given position, based on your needs right now.

Which is why I used Deployment Tactics as an example: toggle between your single-target and AoE skills, both offensive and defensive. During most dungeon pulls, you'll want Adloquium (stance off) and Art of War (stance on); within most boss fights, you'll prefer Succor (stance on) and Ruin II (stance off) instead, meaning there would be ample reason to toggle frequently to suit your needs during each encounter.
... Plus you could also argue for AoE equivalents of Physick (meaning no need for Emergency Tactics if they just buff Physick) or possibly even Bio (Miasma, anyone?) without increasing the button count.

noct was greatly buffed on sbh and if used right was strong. people just was too into regens to see it least for me noct saved me fron alot of things just as sage does too that may severly hurt me or 1 hit unless it was those 999999 one hit do to a certain mech not done right. whm darn right am going noct. another ast am gonna rush noct and sch, i rather leave duty as i dont wanna be in dirunal. Ill actually say that noct actually made it more a challange to make healing fun. It made me be alert and gave a good old feel of mp management and its worse potency heals vs op cheap mp cost dirunal heals and dirunal just seem to make ast look or feel too lazy.

[Zolvolt]

noct was greatly buffed on sbh and if used right was strong. people just was too into regens to see it least for me noct saved me fron alot of things just as sage does too that may severly hurt me or 1 hit unless it was those 999999 one hit do to a certain mech not done right. whm darn right am going noct. another ast am gonna rush noct and sch, i rather leave duty as i dont wanna be in dirunal. Ill actually say that noct actually made it more a challange to make healing fun. It made me be alert and gave a good old feel of mp management and its worse potency heals vs op cheap mp cost dirunal heals and dirunal just seem to make ast look or feel too lazy.

I'm so glad the noct vs. diurnal debate is well and dead. Most people had no idea how the shield math worked because of the stance buff and always downtalked the ast shields because of it. It was pretty fun progging as noct and then double regen for when gear made you OP.

[IceBlueNinja]

I'm so glad the noct vs. diurnal debate is well and dead. Most people had no idea how the shield math worked because of the stance buff and always downtalked the ast shields because of it. It was pretty fun progging as noct and then double regen for when gear made you OP.

yes but poor sage now is facing noct ast old fate where people hate and degrading sages shields lol, but i seem to give big nice meaty shields as a sage too just like old noct ast whether single or aoe, recent holos buff that all seem to forget makes it even more a breeze to make damage tickles. e diag/prog can be also stack with holos(giving also 10% migi) + kera(gives another 10% migi) +pani + hami, (which both giving burst heals to boot) so how is sages shields weak or inferior to sch I still wonder. I remember your post friend its still my favorite x3. I see your on my data center as well lets team up and do stuff sometimes!!!!!!!!!.

[Supersnow845]

yes but poor sage now is facing noct ast old fate where people hate and degrading sages shields lol, but i seem to give big nice meaty shields as a sage too just like old noct ast whether single or aoe, recent holos buff that all seem to forget makes it even more a breeze to make damage tickles. e diag/prog can be also stack with holos(giving also 10% migi) + kera(gives another 10% migi) +pani + hami, (which both giving burst heals to boot) so how is sages shields weak or inferior to sch I still wonder. I remember your post friend its still my favorite x3. I see your on my data center as well lets team up and do stuff sometimes!!!!!!!!!.

SGE’s shields aren’t “weak” per say they are just dominated by spreadlo, Zoe e prog + holos is roughly the same potency shield as a spreadlo with 1 10% buff and is far more cd expensive as both holos and Zoe have other functions outside of strong party GCD shields, then on top of that SCH needs only 1 10% to equal e prog + holos, it has 2 10%’s and 1 20% on top of that critlo benefits from single target healing up buffs (krasis, natures minne, thrill of battle) as well as AOE buffs like physis and mantra whereas SGE’s shields only benefit from the latter

So spreadlo is less expensive from a CD perspective, is equal to SGE’s combo using only 1 of the three buffs SCH has, benefits from a wider range of healing up buffs and the shield doesn’t consume any of your mitigations

[currentlemon]

Hey, look what I found! An old thread that is still relevant to this day!

Since DT is almost upon us, I think we should bring this topic into discussion again. Are there any particular Healing actions that you think each Healer Job doesn't need? Or are there any Healer actions that need to be toned down to some extent?