What Zero Could've Been

[tokinokanatae]

My problem with the MSQ this time was Y'shtola, but mainly because I felt like she sort of sucked the air out of the room.

Her interactions with Zero were given the primary focus--even though I could very easily see Zero having interesting dynamics with the other two as well as Y'shtola. For example, Estinien on the surface likes to act a lot like Zero, pretending that his friendship towards us (and now the other Scions/Vrtra) isn't as much of a factor in his actions as it actually is. I'd like to see Zero put him on the spot by asking him what he's "getting" out of coming to the Void. And, for Vrtra, considering the amount of aether he has, I would have found it interesting if she insisted on him being the primary feeder for the deals Y'shtola brokers, or even Vrtra getting frustrated with her transactional nature when they got more concrete word regarding his sister and she wants to haggle down to the last drop of aether what they can and can't expect from her.

I've said in the past I feel like the writers sort of rely on Y'shtola in a way I don't like, namely to use her as a narrative device to explain locales or new functions of magic to us. This means her "hunches" or "theories" tend to be "fact" nine times out of ten, instead of something she has to refine and work on as she gains more knowledge. I would have liked to see the Void be a struggle for her to navigate or something to throw her more off guard than she was. Something that makes her feel like she's also going with us into uncharted waters, instead of acting as our all-knowing navigator through them. I don't mind her and Zero having a unique bond in theory--and there's certainly time for the others to get their own with Zero--but I will confess 6.2 MSQ did leave me a little colder overall than I would have liked going into 6.3.

[Brinne]

My problem with the MSQ this time was Y'shtola, but mainly because I felt like she sort of sucked the air out of the room.

Her interactions with Zero were given the primary focus--even though I could very easily see Zero having interesting dynamics with the other two as well as Y'shtola. For example, Estinien on the surface likes to act a lot like Zero, pretending that his friendship towards us (and now the other Scions/Vrtra) isn't as much of a factor in his actions as it actually is. I'd like to see Zero put him on the spot by asking him what he's "getting" out of coming to the Void. And, for Vrtra, considering the amount of aether he has, I would have found it interesting if she insisted on him being the primary feeder for the deals Y'shtola brokers, or even Vrtra getting frustrated with her transactional nature when they got more concrete word regarding his sister and she wants to haggle down to the last drop of aether what they can and can't expect from her.

I've said in the past I feel like the writers sort of rely on Y'shtola in a way I don't like, namely to use her as a narrative device to explain locales or new functions of magic to us. This means her "hunches" or "theories" tend to be "fact" nine times out of ten, instead of something she has to refine and work on as she gains more knowledge. I would have liked to see the Void be a struggle for her to navigate or something to throw her more off guard than she was. Something that makes her feel like she's also going with us into uncharted waters, instead of acting as our all-knowing navigator through them. I don't mind her and Zero having a unique bond in theory--and there's certainly time for the others to get their own with Zero--but I will confess 6.2 MSQ did leave me a little colder overall than I would have liked going into 6.3.

Probably one of the more grating things about Y'shtola in 6.2 - that unfortunately did drag Zero down a bit along with her - is the way she, multiple times, happily "got one up" on Zero in ways that felt childish or made no sense (in the case of 'we gave you your name so we you have to repay us') or even weirdly unfair ('we promised you dragon aether but gave you apples') and it always worked without issue. It's one of those cases where I could see the writer strings tugging in terms of "see how clever Y'shtola is?" and Zero being yanked around somewhat as a narrative puppet to accommodate that. I realize part of the point was also to illustrate that Zero wasn't as hardened as she presented herself, but the way it was done felt pretty contrived to me.

[Lunaxia]

Something that makes her feel like she's also going with us into uncharted waters, instead of acting as our all-knowing navigator through them. I don't mind her and Zero having a unique bond in theory--and there's certainly time for the others to get their own with Zero--but I will confess 6.2 MSQ did leave me a little colder overall than I would have liked going into 6.3.

Excellent post, and puts into words why Y'shtola has bothered me for a while, especially the part I quoted.

I remember especially during one of our talks with the Watcher during the EW MSQ getting irritated with the way she was addressing him. Hello, you're talking to someone (well, sort of) thousands of years old from a world beyond ours about a history lost to the ages who has seen and known things far beyond your comprehension while we're stood on a secret base on the moon we never even knew existed, could you possibly not talk to him like you would some petulant schoolboy you're questioning in the street and have some vague semblance of emotion about you?

[tokinokanatae]

I remember especially during one of our talks with the Watcher during the EW MSQ getting irritated with the way she was addressing him. Hello, you're talking to someone (well, sort of) thousands of years old from a world beyond ours about a history lost to the ages who has seen and known things far beyond your comprehension while we're stood on a secret base on the moon we never even knew existed, could you possibly not talk to him like you would some petulant schoolboy you're questioning in the street and have some vague semblance of emotion about you?

This speaks to another frustration I have with her: she never seems all that excited to learn new things.

Take G'raha circa Crystal Tower, for example. He was upset at having to allow us to clear out the dangerous sections before the scientists could have their turn to inspect and test parts of the Tower. He was so excited over the idea of seeing new things related to his specialization that it was a part of his characterization.

But Y'shtola never seems to react that way. I'm not saying she has to be sulky over not getting to be among the first to see something in the same way G'raha is, but about the ony thing I can ever remember wow-ing her is maybe Amaurot? For the rest, she seems remarkably detached and unphased by anything new that happens to her or even comes across her path.

[SannaR]

This speaks to another frustration I have with her: she never seems all that excited to learn new things.

Take G'raha circa Crystal Tower, for example. He was upset at having to allow us to clear out the dangerous sections before the scientists could have their turn to inspect and test parts of the Tower. He was so excited over the idea of seeing new things related to his specialization that it was a part of his characterization.

But Y'shtola never seems to react that way. I'm not saying she has to be sulky over not getting to be among the first to see something in the same way G'raha is, but about the ony thing I can ever remember wow-ing her is maybe Amaurot? For the rest, she seems remarkably detached and unphased by anything new that happens to her or even comes across her path.

To me I think that's partly due to her figuring that's how you should act. Because again look at who raised her. We also don't know the types of stuff she might have read in a certain Library. I mean it had a few books about Garlean naming conventions in it. Along with its own restricted section. I know that is all a weak sauced rebuttal but it does fit her character and background.

[tokinokanatae]

To me I think that's partly due to her figuring that's how you should act. Because again look at who raised her. We also don't know the types of stuff she might have read in a certain Library. I mean it had a few books about Garlean naming conventions in it. Along with its own restricted section. I know that is all a weak sauced rebuttal but it does fit her character and background.

I think you're actually 100% right on why they write Y'shtola this way. It definitely has to do with her upbringing and it's an affect she (probably) deliberately plays into, since she doesn't like being seen as vulnerable. I just think you need a character to be a little bit vulnerable to the player character to really connect to them, but I fully admit that might just be my own issue. Y'shotla's certainly popular enough even without appealing directly to me!

[SentioftheHoukai]

Excellent post, and puts into words why Y'shtola has bothered me for a while, especially the part I quoted.

I remember especially during one of our talks with the Watcher during the EW MSQ getting irritated with the way she was addressing him. Hello, you're talking to someone (well, sort of) thousands of years old from a world beyond ours about a history lost to the ages who has seen and known things far beyond your comprehension while we're stood on a secret base on the moon we never even knew existed, could you possibly not talk to him like you would some petulant schoolboy you're questioning in the street and have some vague semblance of emotion about you?

Is he, though? I don't recall the narrative giving us any actual indication he retained the vast repositories of knowledge that an Ancient that lived through the Final Days of Yore and what came before might possess. I'm not saying that you're definitively wrong per se, but he always came off more to me as some sort of Sundered familiar of Hydaelyn's in a manner similar to Argos. He almost certainly wasn't the same man that he was during the era of the World Unsundered. Say what you will about Y'shtola, but rude and dismissive is certainly not one the adjectives I'd use to describe her. She's never actually talked down towards anyone, not in anyway that could really be considered dismissive. Most of the closest counterexamples are more snarky one-liners, like "Little Sun", and "Take you over my knee" and the more recent one when the WoL throws her under the bus beneath Thavnair's ocean.

To me I think that's partly due to her figuring that's how you should act. Because again look at who raised her. We also don't know the types of stuff she might have read in a certain Library. I mean it had a few books about Garlean naming conventions in it. Along with its own restricted section. I know that is all a weak sauced rebuttal but it does fit her character and background.

I don't really think that a weak counterargument. So little of Y'shtola's actual upbringing and background is directly stated that such inferences based on what little context clues we do know are often necessary to piece together an accurate picture of what she's like. Personally, I'd argue that Y'shtola being somewhat emotionally detached upon discovering something new can actually be attributed to her apprenticeship under the Master Matoya. We've all seen what she's like, it's not unrealistic to think Y'shtola may have picked up some of her mannerisms in the process. It helps to tie the title of Master Matoya between the both of them as well. It's almost like the former is maternal towards the latter. Something to ruminate upon, at any rate.

Honestly I'd argue all the Scions could use some fleshed out backstories now that all the hubbub over the Apocalypse is out of the way. It'd certainly make them more tolerable, at least for me. How much do we definitively know about any individual member of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn? I empathize more with characters with fleshed out backstories and motives, and FFXIV ironically does better in this respect with it's antagonists and now all the major ones are dead and dusted. As an aside, this topic's title is kinda funny since Zero's story.... hasn't actually gone anywhere yet. While I can't really say I'm looking forward to where they take it, I function better when I give people the benefit of the doubt than when I condemn them based on a pre-crime. So, I dunno maybe the Void will be interesting. I know I have my own expectations for it, but it's simply not feasible to expect all those to play out as I desire them to.