What Zero Could've Been

[SentioftheHoukai]

Excellent post, and puts into words why Y'shtola has bothered me for a while, especially the part I quoted.

I remember especially during one of our talks with the Watcher during the EW MSQ getting irritated with the way she was addressing him. Hello, you're talking to someone (well, sort of) thousands of years old from a world beyond ours about a history lost to the ages who has seen and known things far beyond your comprehension while we're stood on a secret base on the moon we never even knew existed, could you possibly not talk to him like you would some petulant schoolboy you're questioning in the street and have some vague semblance of emotion about you?

Is he, though? I don't recall the narrative giving us any actual indication he retained the vast repositories of knowledge that an Ancient that lived through the Final Days of Yore and what came before might possess. I'm not saying that you're definitively wrong per se, but he always came off more to me as some sort of Sundered familiar of Hydaelyn's in a manner similar to Argos. He almost certainly wasn't the same man that he was during the era of the World Unsundered. Say what you will about Y'shtola, but rude and dismissive is certainly not one the adjectives I'd use to describe her. She's never actually talked down towards anyone, not in anyway that could really be considered dismissive. Most of the closest counterexamples are more snarky one-liners, like "Little Sun", and "Take you over my knee" and the more recent one when the WoL throws her under the bus beneath Thavnair's ocean.

To me I think that's partly due to her figuring that's how you should act. Because again look at who raised her. We also don't know the types of stuff she might have read in a certain Library. I mean it had a few books about Garlean naming conventions in it. Along with its own restricted section. I know that is all a weak sauced rebuttal but it does fit her character and background.

I don't really think that a weak counterargument. So little of Y'shtola's actual upbringing and background is directly stated that such inferences based on what little context clues we do know are often necessary to piece together an accurate picture of what she's like. Personally, I'd argue that Y'shtola being somewhat emotionally detached upon discovering something new can actually be attributed to her apprenticeship under the Master Matoya. We've all seen what she's like, it's not unrealistic to think Y'shtola may have picked up some of her mannerisms in the process. It helps to tie the title of Master Matoya between the both of them as well. It's almost like the former is maternal towards the latter. Something to ruminate upon, at any rate.

Honestly I'd argue all the Scions could use some fleshed out backstories now that all the hubbub over the Apocalypse is out of the way. It'd certainly make them more tolerable, at least for me. How much do we definitively know about any individual member of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn? I empathize more with characters with fleshed out backstories and motives, and FFXIV ironically does better in this respect with it's antagonists and now all the major ones are dead and dusted. As an aside, this topic's title is kinda funny since Zero's story.... hasn't actually gone anywhere yet. While I can't really say I'm looking forward to where they take it, I function better when I give people the benefit of the doubt than when I condemn them based on a pre-crime. So, I dunno maybe the Void will be interesting. I know I have my own expectations for it, but it's simply not feasible to expect all those to play out as I desire them to.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Y'shtola always struck me as a strange choice for the game's mascot in general. Personally I would have preferred the official mascot to be the player character - depicted as he is in the various cinematic trailers.

It kinda makes sense to me. They want a character who's actually visibly in the game early on to hook new players into meeting them, so the generic WoL is out. Of the Scions, the twins are too young (and Alisae ditches the main story for a while), Thancred spends a big chunk of ARR possessed by an antagonist, and Urianger is basically irrelevant to the plot until the Warriors of Darkness arc and then disappears again until Shadowbringers. Yda and Papalymo are the comic relief duo, and Minfilia and Tataru are non-action characters. That pretty much defaults to Y'shtola.

Plus, pretty girls sell merch. Probably could've just stopped with that, really....

So really, her big push lately comes across to me less as the writers actually wanting her to be front and center, and more like marketing forcing her there. And we can all see how that's working out. Which is a shame; even as someone who likes the Scions, I'd certainly go for a break from the main group after two expansions of them all front and center. Hell, I love the twins, but the best part of the patches has been the two of them taking a backseat and not getting involved.

[Lauront]

I also think there's a distinction to be made between someone simply liking the Ancients or Garleans, and constantly telling us we should feel bad for accepting that they are the story-designated doomed predecessors and antagonists, respectively. They've been written to exist in those roles.

I also think it's a mistake to equate "expressing a controversial opinion and having people disagree with it" and "expressing a story-aligned opinion and having people disagree with it" as equal events.

Multiple people can disagree with a controversial take because they're all basing their opinions on the same canon; it doesn't mean they're teaming up against the controversial person.

There is a difference, but please let's acknowledge that within the lore subforum, there is a specific poster whose bread and butter it is to try (deliberately) confuse in-game character perspectives/affiliation with player sentiment towards the story, and who is intent to both strawman fans of the ancients, and in the same breath, claim they're tired of discussing them and that the game should move on from them, while obsessively droning on about the topic and refusing to actually deal with good faith criticism of the story and weaving rather strange conspiracies about critics of the story. It's easy enough to identify and filter out trolls or hit and run posts, but we're talking about a rather consistent and persistent pattern here. I wouldn't bring it up otherwise because it's specific to that subforum, but since you two were discussing it...

Secondly: I am not obligated to like the writing, in the sense that simply because the characters are written to fulfil a specific purpose, it does not follow that the execution is going to be good (i.e. yes, in the current timeline, events had to occur as they did, but it doesn't mean I have to celebrate that fact or consider the way this was justified/explained to be well written/appealing/whatever.) You obviously do not have to feel bad about something, you do not have to agree with my approach to it, but simply because something is written a certain way, it does not follow it will succeed in landing with the audience that way - this is out of the writers' control to some degree.

For instance, Yoshi acknowledges audience reception vs what was written did not pan out as he expected, e.g. the portrayal of the ancients in Elpis, of them being 'scary', whereas he notes audience reception of them was largely at odds with that. I have said it before, but it's almost like he's oblivious to the same zone's side-quests, nevermind tidbits we had about the ancients from before. It is also open to the audience to be critical of the theme in question, or how it was handled. There have been many good posts on the topic of how dissonant the writing is in some areas, coupled with themes that are presented in a confusing, at times inconsistent and muddled manner - and once more, I don't have to like a theme or how it's being applied. The story has highly controversial aspects to it, and in some cases raises eyebrows in what it seems to be trying to justify, even if the writers may have tried to walk it back to some extent, e.g. via the Omega quests.

I can't say I am aware of many ancient fans in lore demanding that you feel bad about it - the discussions are usually premised in more abstract terms, around the writing itself, or about the posters' own sentiments on it. Until the poster I mentioned above tries to make it personal and try ignite the discussion, which is why I largely ignore them. They're not alone but they are by far and away the worst offender. The one habit which has to end for productive discussion on the story to continue is this tendency (yes, of all concerned) of lumping individuals into this or that side or camp, and it really is not unique to the posters in this thread. For example, just because I try and assist someone in clarifying a point they're making, it does not follow I agree with their each and every postulate. It's all been discussed to death, though, so there is a certain weariness forming around it...

In sum: I don't care whether you personally feel bad about it or not, but that doesn't mean I'm limited to simply expressing like of the ancients, or Garleans for that matter, when discussing them. My issue really is more to do with the writing. For those who love it, that's their prerogative, so long as they acknowledge I don't have to like it.

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

I'd hoped they'd create some breathing space for new characters past the point of them "disbanding". The point where they could off some has sailed now, but a long vacation wouldn't hurt to give the newer additions a chance to shine.

(Join in the debate and then slowly slide out when they bring out the totems to dance around and Venat effigies to burn.)

I really empathise though, Endwalker made for quite an alienating experience. Playing through it and just... really balking at the clunky exposition, disjointed tone, bizarrely transparent fanservice and tremulous writing, and then looking around to find no one was seeing what I did was... unsettling, to say the least. I was left looking at EW and then at the previous expansions and thinking, did you actually see this? Did we play the same game? Did you play any of the other games? But where are you left with to talk about it?

These forums provide some relief, but it cools off rather rapidly once discussions get going and then there's no real outlet to talk about it properly.

I'm not Venat's biggest fan, and strongly disagree with the justifications they presented for her (really, it almost feels like the time loop is a failsafe if all other excuses are rejected... and even then, it's not a great one), but my issue has never been her so much as the writing around her. Hermes, yes, there's not much I like with that one.

[Silverbane]

There is of course going to be a lot of divergence when it comes to liking or not liking fictional characters; real life is no different. But based my own experience watching anime since the early days of imported Japanese laserdisks, I have to wonder:

Is people's liking or not liking of a character influenced by what language they listen in, or more specifically,
to which voice actor/actress is voicing the character?

The sound of someone's voice is a huge part of their personality, sometimes more than the words they say. We see this in anime: Lisa Ortiz did fine work, but Megumi Hayashibara defined Lina Inverse IMO. Movies too: Darth Vader was brought to life as much by James Earl Jones' deep voice and manner of speaking as anything else, for example.

My Nihongo was never much more than enough to get me around as a tourist, and it's declined a lot since I last visited Japan. But still, I prefer subtitled to dubbed (even when I notice that the subtitles aren't true to the spoken words), even for things like the Ghibli films that employ A-list actors to do the dubs.

So naturally, I listen to FFXIV in Japanese.
And I really like the way Ai Kayano voices Y'shtola.
Would I like Y'shtola less if I listened to Robyn Addison's English rendition of her?
I don't know.

I think it would be interesting to survey the FFXIV English-speaking fanbase and see if a character being liked or disliked is strongly correlated with which voice actor/actress a person experiences the character through.

[Jason_Ashford]

this has to be a troll post, i cannot believe someone would actually be serious when saying "why can't we have zero act like bayonetta?"

[Floortank]

I think some of your points are worth considering but maybe you overstate the case. I don't have any problem with the character but it is the exact same pace we've seen dozens of times.

[RukoBoshi]

I think some of your points are worth considering but maybe you overstate the case. I don't have any problem with the character but it is the exact same pace we've seen dozens of times.

I'd argue the pace is a little different this time around.
Her relationship with us is purely professional right now, our goals are aligned because she benefits from it. She don't really care about our objectives.

Now i wonder if it will stay similar when Zero's character arc is complete.
Will she become another character that just tag along and do what's right just because it's good, or will she gain new objectives of her own ?

I really hope that Estinien and Zero have their own agency coming into the next expansion (if she tag along).
Or at least that they come with us for the adventure/discovery and not because we have to save something. That way they can figure out a goal once we're there.

[Gemina]

I'd argue the pace is a little different this time around.
Her relationship with us is purely professional right now, our goals are aligned because she benefits from it. She don't really care about our objectives.

Now i wonder if it will stay similar when Zero's character arc is complete.
Will she become another character that just tag along and do what's right just because it's good, or will she gain new objectives of her own ?

I really hope that Estinien and Zero have their own agency coming into the next expansion (if she tag along).
Or at least that they come with us for the adventure/discovery and not because we have to save something. That way they can figure out a goal once we're there.

I'll say this: If Estinien and G'raha have set the bar in order to become a Scion, Zero has a long way to go. I'm indifferent to her character right now, and found the mystery surrounding Zeno's avatar much more interesting. Now that we know who and what she is, my interest level has waned. Personally speaking, I hope her arc ends during EW. At this point, I am looking more to drop some Scions than to add to the roster.

[Iyrnthota]

I'll say this: If Estinien and G'raha have set the bar in order to become a Scion, Zero has a long way to go. I'm indifferent to her character right now, and found the mystery surrounding Zeno's avatar much more interesting. Now that we know who and what she is, my interest level has waned. Personally speaking, I hope her arc ends during EW. At this point, I am looking more to drop some Scions than to add to the roster.

I personally don't think she will become a Scion.
I'm more inclined to think that the following patches will be about her learning to care about her home again, resulting in her staying there attempting to make it better.

[Lunaxia]

Is he, though? I don't recall the narrative giving us any actual indication he retained the vast repositories of knowledge that an Ancient that lived through the Final Days of Yore and what came before might possess. I'm not saying that you're definitively wrong per se, but he always came off more to me as some sort of Sundered familiar of Hydaelyn's in a manner similar to Argos. He almost certainly wasn't the same man that he was during the era of the World Unsundered. Say what you will about Y'shtola, but rude and dismissive is certainly not one the adjectives I'd use to describe her. She's never actually talked down towards anyone, not in anyway that could really be considered dismissive. Most of the closest counterexamples are more snarky one-liners, like "Little Sun", and "Take you over my knee" and the more recent one when the WoL throws her under the bus beneath Thavnair's ocean.

Hence the "sort of." He may be a simulacrum of who he once was, but he's proven myself to be more substantial and closer to who he was than, say, the shades in Amaurot, possessing I believe at least a hefty chunk of his memories, intelligence, knowledge, and the capacity for discussion, duty and reflection.

Also, were you not several pages ago arguing how rude Y'shtola was to Magnai before dubbing us all nefarious or some such for claiming otherwise and leaving? Bit odd that you would suddenly decide to take this stance, all things considered.