Tales from the Dawn #4: "A Question of Death" (Jullus)

[SannaR]

There's two arguments though. One is about the possibility that any freshly liberated nations would instantly want to kick em while they're down. And the one Vyrerus talks about in how people have said that those who joined the Ilsabard contingent wanted nothing better than to kick the Garleans while they're down instead being of the few who could resist that want and wanted to help.

[KariTheFox]

There's two arguments though. One is about the possibility that any freshly liberated nations would instantly want to kick em while they're down.

An idea that really, smacks of justifying the intense paranoia and xenophobia of the Garleans, because look! The barbarians of the world actually were out to get the poor Garleans.

If I was a Garlean, I'd be more worried about getting locked into one-sided trade deals with Ul'dah and Limsa Lominsa more than I'd worry about my homeland being invaded by a bunch of pissed off Corvosians.

[Absimiliard]

An idea that really, smacks of justifying the intense paranoia and xenophobia of the Garleans, because look! The barbarians of the world actually were out to get the poor Garleans.

Are you familiar with Garlean history? Their intense paranoia and xenophobia exist in large part because they were practically destroyed due to their comparative weakness to other spoken races. First they were driven from their original homeland, then the new neighbors adjacent to their current homeland took it upon themselves to try and take what little they'd managed to get for themselves there. This continued right up until the advent of magitek and subsequent formalization of the Garlean Empire.

It takes a very, very long time to undo a mentality forged through generations of persecution, death, and enslavement. Something like that has a habit of lingering long after the actual threat has passed. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty darned concerned if I were surrounded by enemies possessed of abilities vastly beyond anything my own people could counteract. Enemies that, in addition to being demonstrably superior in practically every way, are rightly displeased with having been conquered. The severe curtailing of the Garlean population coupled with the loss of most of their military and destruction of much of their magitek weapons means they are wholly reliant on others for their continued wellbeing.

If I was a Garlean, I'd be more worried about getting locked into one-sided trade deals with Ul'dah and Limsa Lominsa more than I'd worry about my homeland being invaded by a bunch of pissed off Corvosians.

Not necessarily an unfounded concern given the Eorzean Alliance's rather pronounced habit of taking advantage of others, in particular the two member states you mentioned.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Also, something I take issue with is several people, notably Sentiofhoukai, Abismiliard, and a few others claiming that the Ilsabard contingent was full of Eorzeans on the quest for revenge. That's outlandishly false. The entire contingent was selected to be people who were willing to put aside or had no personal feelings. Hell, we even had the voiced cutscene where the former conscripted Ala Mhigan hands Jullus a hot drink.

If you're going to come in and fling mud, and settle all your scores, then at least be correct. I know we've basically become a Debate forum rather than a Lore forum, but you can at least get blatant things like that right. You're literally just giving the people you don't like ammunition.

But clearly these are wasted words. Y'all are in here to butt heads. Far be it from me to be able to stop you.

Ouch, this hurts. Considering you came out from my musings with the complete opposite take of what I actually said, I wonder just how worthy you are to call others out on their "inaccuracy" when for all intents and purposes it appears that you are the one flinging mud for the sake of it.

I noticed your post was written at 3 AM last night, though. So, I'll give you some time to come in and defend yourself before writing you off as yet another pretender.

Not necessarily an unfounded concern given the Eorzean Alliance's rather pronounced habit of taking advantage of others, in particular the two member states you mentioned.

Yeah, uh.... Ul'dah is "the evils of capitalism" taken to its logical extreme and Limsa Lominsa is best known for breaking its peace treaty with the Kobolds and then relying on the Scions to save their treacherous asses from Titan. Sometimes I feel like Fray, should've just let Leviathan DROWN THEM ALL.

[RyuDragnier]

An idea that really, smacks of justifying the intense paranoia and xenophobia of the Garleans, because look! The barbarians of the world actually were out to get the poor Garleans.

People tend to want revenge on those who wronged them, and so expecting people to want to get revenge is completely normal. From what I can tell from the story, the treatment from the Garleans depended on who was in charge. Landis was mentioned as being fairly peaceful, with the people laughing and living alongside Garlean soldiers without issues. Doma as we saw was treated like absolute crap, and judging from the whole thing with Bozja, the entire thing was caused by a tragedy nobody in Garlemald had no real control over (because Bahamut set everything in motion). Considering how the IVth treated people equally, it's very likely the civilians of Lea Monde are fans of the Garleans (and may be hostile towards the Resistance).

[MikkoAkure]

People tend to want revenge on those who wronged them, and so expecting people to want to get revenge is completely normal. From what I can tell from the story, the treatment from the Garleans depended on who was in charge. Landis was mentioned as being fairly peaceful, with the people laughing and living alongside Garlean soldiers without issues. Doma as we saw was treated like absolute crap, and judging from the whole thing with Bozja, the entire thing was caused by a tragedy nobody in Garlemald had no real control over (because Bahamut set everything in motion). Considering how the IVth treated people equally, it's very likely the civilians of Lea Monde are fans of the Garleans (and may be hostile towards the Resistance).

In one of the first cutscenes with Gabranth, he's standing in Valnain (his main base city of that region of Dalmasca) which is partly in ruins so I wouldn't count on local support for the IVth there. According to Return to Ivalice, Gabranth and his IVth legion had just marched on the city, which doesn't sound like they consented and opened the doors for him. There's also mentions of Dalmascan Resistance working there. Lea Monde isn't mentioned as much as Valnain is, but we know from ARR that the Garleans (who would have been led by the IVth and Gabranth at the time) burned down the entire countryside around Lea Monde and destroyed the vineyards.

30 years before present, he killed 70,000 Dalmascans along with their prince when he besieged Nalbina. All the way back in ARR we met a Garlean who was traumatized by the IVth's invasion of his home. The Dalmascans made multiple rebellions, not just the one we knew about recently that turned Rabanastre into a hole in the ground. The whole province refused to submit and that's what led to the XIVth being brought in to wreck everything.

As far as Bozja goes, we know it wasn't great before the Garleans came, but the resistance members we bump into also talk about being oppressed and I don't think they'd have a resistance if they were in a Landis situation where everything was hunky-dory.

[RyuDragnier]

In one of the first cutscenes with Gabranth, he's standing in Valnain (his main base city and capital of that region of Dalmasca) which is partly in ruins so I wouldn't count on local support for the IVth there. According to Return to Ivalice, Gabranth and his IVth legion had just marched on the city, which doesn't sound like they consented and opened the doors for him. There's also mentions of Dalmascan Resistance working there.

Considering he had broken away from the main Garlean army, and that the Garlean refueling center was destroyed there...I'm wondering if he planned that in advance to make it so no other Legion could come after the IVth easily.

[Hurlstone]

I think in any future story that involves the Garleans we will probably tackle with the fact that many people and formerly occupied territories will have a negative/aggressive view on them, and the idea of bringing the empire back into a position of power. I feel overall it could be an interesting aspect to explore, and it makes sense given how the wold has suffered due to Garlean actions. I felt the Healer Job Quest (Which was by far my favorite) dealt with similar things, in regard to how the Ala Mhigo people feel about those like Fordola who allied with their oppressors. I admit I am also a sucker for redemption/forgiveness storylines, and this would fit into such tropes nicely. I suspect if they did did explore such issues, they would come to a similar conclusion like the Healer Job Quest did, that despite being valid in ones anger a line must eventually be drawn for healing to begin. Plus realizing that most Garlean citizens are victims of that regime too.

Yeah, uh.... Ul'dah is "the evils of capitalism" taken to its logical extreme and Limsa Lominsa is best known for breaking its peace treaty with the Kobolds and then relying on the Scions to save their treacherous asses from Titan. Sometimes I feel like Fray, should've just let Leviathan DROWN THEM ALL.

I pray for the day I can lead a revolution and finally burn Ul'dah to the ground. The fact it is so insanely corrupted and we just accept it because ‘Aww the sweet Lafa queen is trying her best" is probably the story choice I dislike the most. At least with Limsa we had the Admiral make amends and learn her lesson in the end, Nanamo I felt was done in a bad way. Anyway, one day I will get my revenge Lolorito, one day…

[KariTheFox]

Are you familiar with Garlean history? Their intense paranoia and xenophobia exist in large part because they were practically destroyed due to their comparative weakness to other spoken races. First they were driven from their original homeland, then the new neighbors adjacent to their current homeland took it upon themselves to try and take what little they'd managed to get for themselves there. This continued right up until the advent of magitek and subsequent formalization of the Garlean Empire.

This is not quite true.

Encyclopedia Eorzea - A Chronology of the Sixth Astral Era:
922 - “The Garleans establish the Republic of Garlemald in the northern reaches of Ilsabard.”
ca. 930 -*“The Republic of Garlemald is dealt a crippling blow when its capital is raided by the Hyuran nomads of the north.
935 -*“The Republic forges an alliance with the Roegadyn mountain clans, enlisting Roegadyn battle mages as mercenaries to fortify defenses around the perimeter of the capital.”
937 -*“Bolstered by the strength of the Roegadyn battle mages, the Garlean army succeeds in repelling the nomads.”

Encyclopedia Eorzea II - Ilsabard’s Fledgling Empire:*“In 922 of the Sixth Astral Era, over six hundred years ago, the various Garlean tribes of Ilsabard came together, and the Garlean Republic was born. Though unified, their strength still paled in comparison to that of their neighbors, until centuries later, in 1513, when the advent of magitek revolutionized the Garlean military’s capabilities and tactics, and empowered them to subjugate their neighbors as they gradually became the most powerful nation in the region.”

While it is true that early on its history, the Garlean Republic was victim to raids by other tribes, it appears that in a number of decades, they were able to rally with the help of espionage and mercanaries to be minor nation, weak compared to thier neighbors, but still a firmly established sovereign state. For a period of over 500 years, which even by Eorzean reckoning, must be a pretty long time.

The idea that the Garleans are history's victims, forever doomed to be enslaved and subjugated by stronger nations (and therefore, we must become strong and subjugate those barbarians first) is not historical fact. It is a narrative that draws on disparate facts about conflicts that happened centuries ago, in order to tell a founding story about the Garlean Empire that justifies xenophobia and paranoia. Much like how real life fascist movements have foundational narratives about barbarians at the gates, ready to destroy thier pure civilization at any moment.

[Absimiliard]

Stuff

While I won't dispute what the EEs say, it's important to bear in mind how out of date they are. We've new information to go off of now, some revealed to us as recently as Endwalker itself. The Garleans very much were attacked with regularity even after the formation of the Republic. Even generations later the mentality created by that situation stuck with them.

While you are correct in stating those in power did ultimately utilize that fear as a means of creating some rather warped mindsets, its roots in their history cannot be disputed. We need but look to the real world to see the length of time stories of such violations can persist in a population, not to mention how easily the fears they birth can be weaponized. Imperial propaganda fanned the flames of a preexisting fear that had been instilled in the Garlean people since time immemorial.