Tales from the Dawn #4: "A Question of Death" (Jullus)

[Absimiliard]

Yes, tell us more about this villain faction the "hero" faction is currently actively engaged in assisting, whose empire has fallen apart and whose worst leaders have already been ousted. This group we have now been shown conclusively to be made up of ordinary people that just want the right to live out their lives, same as anyone else. Of course, we were told as early as ARR that most imperial citizens and soldiers weren't terrible. SB and Shadowbringers further back this up.

[SentioftheHoukai]

What has Senti actually said about them other than "it is known"? Or does having an edgy signature and posting anime girl reaction images strengthen your credibility on the internet?

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys. Does that mean they're biased against their own creation?

You play as the "Warrior of Light" and fight against masked soldiers with strong fascist aesthetic, led by those who personally kill their own officers and order their army to shoot giant fantasy cannons at their own troops/bases, and who were set up by a literal shadowy figure with the specific goal to end the world. Are we supposed to tiptoe around words like "antagonist" or "villain" or "sins" because it might upset people from a fictional empire in a video game?

Considering how this whole argument started out of a concern of retaliation against civilians who'd committed no "fascist actions" and soldiers press-ganged into service against their will and indoctrinated from birth after their nations having been conquered, I fail to see how this angle of attack is warranted. Obi-Wan called, Mikko. He wants the moral high ground back. Also, we know it threw you off the last time you tried to stand on it.

Additionally, the Fora Knights take up the Telophoroi's mantle and cause the very moment Venat gets called a "villain" or "antagonist" so I honestly struggle to see where this sudden chastisement is coming from. Or it's worth.

As for me, I will NEVER take accusations of fascism, antagonism, and villainization of my favoured factions seriously so long as the Fora Knights fail to uphold their knightly obligations and slander their favoured factions by considering them above reproach. To use another Star Wars quote:

"From my point of view, the Scions and the Warrior of Light/the Eorzean Alliance/Hydaelyn and her sycophantic mongrel hounds are evil!"

Edit: It occurs to me I've failed to articulate this. The "bias" the source has is the same as this forum's worst offenders. The usual anti-Ascian, anti-Garlean, and anti-Ancient derangement so many are afflicted by, and the accompanying incapability to hold the "good guys" to the same ethical standards. This frankly goes double for the Menagerie, since they have yet to update for the revelations capstoned in 6.0. It is highly suspect that if and when it DOES, that the omniprescient bias will only warp to become ever stronger and more deluded. A betrayal of ideals, just like so many on here who were once so fervent in their beliefs that villainy could NEVER be justified through mass slaughter.

If such delusions were present in the Menagerie now, I truly don't expect the pre-established tangent to suddenly veto and change post-Endwalker. That's not the way this fandom's rigid, conservational pattern of rational thought WORKS.

No, Senti's credibility comes from 1) previous discussions I've been in with Senti where they were very knowledgeable, and 2) their statements match up with what I'm seeing on that site. As for you, I don't know you that well and I haven't really seen many knowledgeable things come from you, not to mention what you've been saying is not only not supported but countered from what I'm seeing on that site, so I don't trust you over Senti. I'm not reading that text wall so I'm just going to have to trust one of you on the matter.. Senti might be wrong but I'll take a chance on them over you /shrug.

To be fair to all involved in this rapidly rising onerous debate, I have been wrong in the past. Many times, in fact. The generally accepted behaviour on these forums is to double down and be stubbornly assured of one's own righteousness. This is something I cannot countenance, and an action I refuse to partake of. Far more wise, to admit one's own wrongdoing and MOVE ON. Or..... agree to disagree.



~I know how much it pains you to do so~

[AwesomeJr44]

But you didn't read the story.

You were wrong and are now trying to use the "You just didn't read the story" excuse that's been done to death.

You get so much of it wrong and considering the topic I was talking about with your friend before you jumped in had to do with him believing people would invade the Garleans for their fuel.

Me? Friends with Theodric? Have I finally gotten into the cool kids club? I did it ma and pa! I did it! I'm an official Zodiark Trancer now!

They won't and the reason why is within that post.

Cool. Still not reading the text wall.

You can barely read my name on your screen. It was foolish of me to ask you to read anything.

You take your name way too seriously Oatmeal. Besides, how are you going to tell me that I can't read your name when you spelled Gridania wrong in your profile's 'location'? (and still haven't fixed it lol) I suppose it was foolish of me to ask you to spell anything.

What has Senti actually said about them other than "it is known"? Or does having an edgy signature and posting anime girl reaction images strengthen your credibility on the internet?

No, Senti's credibility comes from 1) previous discussions I've been in with Senti where they were very knowledgeable, and 2) their statements match up with what I'm seeing on that site. As for you, I don't know you that well and I haven't really seen many knowledgeable things come from you, not to mention what you've been saying is not only not supported but countered from what I'm seeing on that site, so I don't trust you over Senti. I'm not reading that text wall so I'm just going to have to trust one of you on the matter.. Senti might be wrong but I'll take a chance on them over you /shrug.

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys. Does that mean they're biased against their own creation?

Except they're not just faceless people, they're people with history that goes further back than their imperial era. Now to be fair, that site isn't updated for Endwalker (which is a detriment to it's credibility), but labeling their entire history (even excluding anything from Endwalker) as "The Sins of Garlemald" sounds disingenuous and I'm not going to bother reading a text wall when that's the title. They can change the title to something more neutral if they want me to treat it as a good source of information.

Yes, tell us more about this villain faction the "hero" faction is currently actively engaged in assisting, whose empire has fallen apart and whose worst leaders have already been ousted. This group we have now been shown conclusively to be made up of ordinary people that just want the right to live out their lives, same as anyone else. Of course, we were told as early as ARR that most imperial citizens and soldiers weren't terrible. SB and Shadowbringers further back this up.

That's my problem with the section's title. It assumes there is nothing more to Garlemald or Garleans than faceless shadow people who are evil cause why not.

[Theodric]

The Garlean Empire was designed by the makers of the game to be bad guys.

Insofar as their stance regarding the game's antagonists is concerned, they've had the likes of this to say on the subject:

"The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain."

Source: https://www.impulsegamer.com/naoki-y...vs-lore-story/

Furthermore, this is a game that serves a global audience. Many players are from many different cultures, backgrounds, belief systems and have varied life experiences. With that in mind, different elements of the setting are going to resonate more with some players over others. The development team are well aware of that and I don't doubt that if push came to shove, they'd encourage players to come to their own conclusions on issues as complex as some of the events that take place in this game's story.

[MikkoAkure]

Now to be fair, that site isn't updated for Endwalker (which is a detriment to it's credibility)

It was updated today because there's updates from the new Tales from the Dawn in there.

Furthermore, this is a game that serves a global audience. Many players are from many different cultures, backgrounds, belief systems and have varied life experiences. With that in mind, different elements of the setting are going to resonate more with some players over others. The development team are well aware of that and I don't doubt that if push came to shove, they'd encourage players to come to their own conclusions on issues as complex as some of the events that take place in this game's story.

If that were the case, why does the official promotional material for the game say things like "rise up with the people of Eorzea and the Far East, and cast down the curs of Garlemald!", "Using the calamitous arrival of the Seventh Umbral Era to sinister advantage", "He regards friend and foe alike with contempt, and tales of his brutality against both have spread far and wide."?

[AwesomeJr44]

It was updated today because there's updates from the new Tales from the Dawn in there.

I checked and it wasn't. And if it's in a different section, that would be necessary information rather than just linking the entire site including non-Garlean sections. But regardless, I'm not checking again as there seems to be nothing of worth to be found there anyways.

Obi-Wan called, Mikko. He wants the moral high ground back. Also, we know it threw you off the last time you tried to stand on it.

Ok, as someone who is not familiar with Mikko, I am interested in seeing this lol

Additionally, the Fora Knights take up the Telophoroi's mantle and cause the very moment Venat gets called a "villain" or "antagonist" so I honestly struggle to see where this sudden chastisement is coming from. Or it's worth.

These people can only see the story in terms of black and white. The Garleans as a race are purely evil while Venat/Genocydaelyn are purely good according to them. Thus when the topic of the abuse the Garleans received pre-empire is brought up, many choose to respond with "Good, they deserved it.", even when the empire they loathe so much hadn't been a thing yet.

It occurs to me I've failed to articulate this. The "bias" the source has is the same as this forum's worst offenders. The usual anti-Ascian, anti-Garlean, and anti-Ancient derangement so many are afflicted by, and the accompanying incapability to hold the "good guys" to the same ethical standards.

I figured that from the title "The Sins of Garlemald", and the lack of similar titles for sections on other nations.

To be fair to all involved in this rapidly rising onerous debate, I have been wrong in the past. Many times, in fact.

Even so, I'd rather trust the one who I know to be wrong sometimes and willing to admit it when they are, than the one I know nothing about. (Mikko)

[KariTheFox]

If that were the case, why does the official promotional material for the game say things like "rise up with the people of Eorzea and the Far East, and cast down the curs of Garlemald!", "Using the calamitous arrival of the Seventh Umbral Era to sinister advantage", "He regards friend and foe alike with contempt, and tales of his brutality against both have spread far and wide."?

I think that quote is specifically about Zenos, though the wording is confusing. Anyway, it is true that the Garlean Empire and Military as a organizing political force is fairly unambigously treated as a villianous force by the narrative.

Yoshi-P's quote about both sides of a given conflict having value is not a license for us to turn around and go, "yeah, I guess the genocidal, fascist empire trying to take over has a good point about might making right."

I feel like people are not distinguishing between the Garlean Empire, a fairly unambious evil, which was literally built by an ancient wizard to cause as much destruction and chaos in the world as possible - and the Garlean people, some of the first victims of that Empire.

[MikkoAkure]

I checked and it wasn't. And if it's in a different section, that would be necessary information rather than just linking the entire site including non-Garlean sections. But regardless, I'm not checking again as there seems to be nothing of worth to be found there anyways.

ctrl+F Tales from the Dawn

If you won't click link:

Tales from the Dawn - A Question of Death: “Jullus would offer no gods-bound prayers as an Eorzean might[...]”

I think that quote is specifically about Zenos, though the wording is confusing.

The last one was about Zenos, The first was the general story blurb for Stormblood and the second was about Garlemald as a whole*.

[Theodric]

If that were the case, why does the official promotional material for the game say things like "rise up with the people of Eorzea and the Far East, and cast down the curs of Garlemald!", "Using the calamitous arrival of the Seventh Umbral Era to sinister advantage", "He regards friend and foe alike with contempt, and tales of his brutality against both have spread far and wide."?

That's just typical marketing talk at work and it's speaking from the perspective of the player characters who do not necessarily have the full picture for any given situation and have been specifically gifted with various perks to conveniently deny them the necessity to go down a similar path themselves when it comes to protecting their loved ones.

Yoshi-P has also specifically commented on how Garlemald is viewed by some players and the protagonists alike:

“They may be commanders or generals or they might be fighting against soldiers from the Empire, in those cases, the player would be facing those people as the enemy and those people would have masks on, so we wouldn’t really see them as a person but we just perceive them as the enemy.

“So that is one thing in the background that we’ve had in the background up until now and that is just a given of how their position was in the story. These people are from a completely different country, as a player and them, we have no relationship between us, no linking with blood or anything like that. So we might have seen them in the same way as we see a monster, so they were just an enemy.”

“As you’re walking through Garlemald, you might see there is a highway that’s been destroyed or there might be a park and the ground which is starting to collapse, so there are these signs of huge destruction there, but we wanted to show those people who live there had a very similar life to how we grew up,” Yoshida continued.

“So maybe the kids in Garlemald, they went to the park and they had a slide and they used to play with the slide just as we did when we were growing up as kids. It was very important for us to show, to express, how those people had their daily lives and we placed a lot of importance on actually thinking about how we would express that when the player finds themselves visiting this city and going there to see what happens there.”

Source: https://www.nme.com/features/gaming-...oshida-3068707

It's pretty common for many stories to introduce antagonists who the protagonists oppose only to reveal that in many ways, they're not too different and they have their own ideals/dreams/complexities at play.

[AwesomeJr44]

ctrl+F Tales from the Dawn

If you won't click link:

The last one was about Zenos, The first was the general story blurb for Stormblood and the second was about Gaius I think.

Finally someone stops expecting others to read the entire text wall just for a paragraph of text. Congratulations, you've achieved what was impossible for Oatmeal's several posts, all in one simple post. Thank you.

Alright, this section does seem to be updated (the fall of the empire one doesn't seem to be, this is why linking the exact page is so important btw!) but I would still like Oatmeal to point out which exact portion of the text I'm supposed to be looking at. I'm not reading this entire text wall for the one sentence Oatmeal wants me to find.

It's pretty common for many stories to introduce antagonists who the protagonists oppose only to reveal that in many ways, they're not too different and they have their own ideals/dreams/complexities at play.

Indeed. For example, if you asked me what I thought about the Ascians pre-Shadowbringers, I'd tell you that they're just one dimensional baddies. If you ask me the same question now, well... my favorite character in all of fiction is among their number.