3% HP nerf, what a giant slap in the dev's face

[FireMage]

I've read more than enough information disputing your claims. Raiding community isn't as large as you think it is

It's half the player base. You have any evidence otherwise?

[Keichi]

At last from the used items i see, when i look to other players, are savage player rare. Half are doing raids could fit. But, raids can be done on normal to.
Savage is probally only a lesser precente of player. And by calculating the potency are the normal dungeons and raids even important. So, that they are not becoming to easy or hard.

What is missing by the dev test is, with wich ilvl are they doing it.
Because it is suicide to do content with the lowest ilvl, would a midd lvl be logical.

[ForteNightshade]

If you can't guarantee the player's skill then you have to go by the kit it brings.

I'll still take the red mage, given the choice.

To clarify, that's because we're assuming the only problem is going to be 'The Enrage'.

The fact of the matter is that there's a whole slew of other things that come before 'The Enrage', and the farther we move away from Week 1 (or "Neo Week 1" as this patch provides), the less the issue the Enrage becomes, and more the issue of simply getting to that point.

Black Mages do not help there, and their relevance to problem 1 will shrink with every passing week, the way it's been every tier.

Saber more or less covered my rebuttal between the Casters.

For the sake of argument though, let's compare the other roles without a combat raise. What value does Machinist offer over Dancer? Warrior over Dark Knight? Reaper over Dragoon? The list goes on. All three of these jobs bring nothing to the table their counterparts either can't match in other ways or simply perform better at. Dark Knight, for example, may lack the self healing Warrior does but it has comparable enough mitigation to compensate while still having a 300 DPS lead. The one advantage Warrior did have with Holmgang has been neutered this tier. Dark Knight is simply the better tank.

Now that 400 DPS may seem meager, especially as gear increases the mistakes we're allowed to make. In a PF setting though, it could easily be the difference between seeing enrage or clearing it. Should players just stop getting damage downs or dying? Ideally, yes. Alas, PF is highly unlikely to have ideal circumstances. Hence why the meta jobs are better even outside of the top tier playerbase. They allow for that margin of error. At least when the gap is this noticeable.

Edit: Do note this was pre-buff to the aforementioned tanks. While Warrior and Paladin remain a little too low, their numbers are close enough that it isn't an outright detriment bringing either one of them.

[CKNovel]

What is missing by the dev test is, with wich ilvl are they doing it.
Because it is suicide to do content with the lowest ilvl, would a midd lvl be logical.

There is an option "Min ilvl" for every content. Ultimate is forced Min ilvl (With at most a 5ilvl bonus).
They test on min ilvl to adjust the DPS for the content to be difficult but clearable week 1.
It's been this way since the first Alexander savage tier where DPS was too tight and might have required additional gear.

If it wouldn't be possible to clear it at min ilvl, what the hell would be the option for?

At last from the used items i see, when i look to other players, are savage player rare. Half are doing raids could fit. But, raids can be done on normal to.
Savage is probally only a lesser precente of player. And by calculating the potency are the normal dungeons and raids even important. So, that they are not becoming to easy or hard.

For numbers:
1.8% of the active playerbase has completed the current savage tier. (Will increase as many are still progging)
5.5% of the active playerbase has completed Dragonsong Ultimate.
27.7% of the active playerbase has completed the previous savage tier.

27.7% is massive. In comparison, 31% of the playerbase got the Amaro mount, obtainable by leveling all battle jobs to 80.

[Avoidy]

I genuinely don't understand. I'm not coming at this from a "defending SE" point of view. If you read my posts, you'll see that I'm the last person to play SE-defense squad. But like, all last week raiders were in here bitching about how the dps check on p8s was too tight and made it hard for non meta comps to clear. So SE took the game down for 8 hours, adjusted the hp values to make it less tight, and now people are complaining about that? What did you want them to do, revamp your job in the middle of the tier? Short of creating a time machine to get the fight perfect on the first try, what did you actually want to see square do in response to your critique about the fight?

[VictorSpoils]

For numbers:
1.8% of the active playerbase has completed the current savage tier. (Will increase as many are still progging)
5.5% of the active playerbase has completed Dragonsong Ultimate.
27.7% of the active playerbase has completed the previous savage tier.

27.7% is massive. In comparison, 31% of the playerbase got the Amaro mount, obtainable by leveling all battle jobs to 80.

I take it this doesn't include every single character/account, active or otherwise, just ones that are registered on that site.

[Kabooa]

For the sake of argument though, let's compare the other roles without a combat raise. What value does Machinist offer over Dancer? Warrior over Dark Knight? Reaper over Dragoon? The list goes on. All three of these jobs bring nothing to the table their counterparts either can't match in other ways or simply perform better at. Dark Knight, for example, may lack the self healing Warrior does but it has comparable enough mitigation to compensate while still having a 300 DPS lead. The one advantage Warrior did have with Holmgang has been neutered this tier. Dark Knight is simply the better tank.

The machinist brings consistency. This isn't something you see on the graph, but believe it or not, most PF groups dont' actually take full advantage of dancer and Bard, which means their contributions lag behind a Machinst who doesn't depend on others to pull its weight. Said it yourself - PF is not likely to have ideal circumstances. The places where damage downs or deaths are most likely to happen are the big mechanics they're putting right before burst windows. A "Good" dancer or bard needs their party, a "Good" machinist doesn't, with the caveat that the best parties don't need or want them back.

This is effectively the same thing the warrior brings, as it doesn't rely upon others to hit its stride. Others are certainly a benefit, but it doesn't have to hope that the 8000 potency it's shoving into 20 seconds has raid buffs on it. Just keep unga'ing. Holmgang is no less usable than the other invulns this tier, it just isn't superior by default. A harsh reality to have to adjust to, certainly. There's also simply the matter that if things-go-wrong(Tm), the Dark Knight has no way to prevent the wipe while a Warrior can contribute to recovery in a more meaningful way, which is value also not associated with a graph, and is also why Problem 1: The Enrage, shrinks in relevance the further the tier goes, and why Problem 2: Getting there, becomes the primary hurdle people have to leap. Said it yourself - PF ain't perfect, and when things ain't perfect, the toolkits that can turn not-perfect into a kill quite simply have more value. Sure, you killed the boss 10 seconds faster, but it took you 3 hours to get there while the corpse dragging team did it in 4 pulls and got to go on with their day. Maybe that's the old man talking here, but I'll take that trade any day of the week.

I can't speak for Reaper, other than it's hardly so far behind to be worth including in here other than it "technically" doesn't bring a crit buff. The one advantage is their personal defense isn't locked into their rotation. A quick glance shows Reaper and Dragoon are in that ideal PDPS/RDPS split, where Dragoon brings more 'RDPS' but Reaper brings more 'ADPS'. Given that Dragoon's extras are just 'damage', this doesn't really seem worth worrying over on its own, and you should probably instead ask "If Sam, why reaper".

Edit: And to answer "If Sam, why Reaper", it's because Sam's a dead job. Every job's a dead job, don'tcha know?

[Kachou_]

The machinist brings consistency. ...

Partially agree. However, mostly disagree. Firstly, you are contradicting yourself. DNC and BRD are what bring more party support. Not MCH. Secondly, DNC and BRD consistently do way more damage than MCH at all percentiles. A DNC with a sam as dance partner is automatically, consistently the best Phys range due to the insane damage and party utility. The machinist brings zero consistency because anyone with the same skill level playing anything else does way more damage and bring more party support. For so-called things-go-wrong, I would argue it is debatable whether WAR really shines the most. For example, in DSR DRK is undoubtedly the best utility tank overall. You can use two Oblations and one TBN to cover both healers and a caster if things-go-wrong. As for invulns, this tier's bleed tank buster basically asks you to throw your invuln away.

Also, from my experience, the damage is the most important utility you can bring to the table. In this tier, if you run jobs with shit damage(or simply run 2 caster 1 physrange 1 melee). The whole team can't afford one single death. However, teams running meta comp can tolerate up to 2 deaths. Even for PF, more damage brings more tolerance for deaths and damage downs. There is a logs report after the 6.21 patch showing that with meta comp you can clear with 5 deaths, 4 damage downs, and 7 people failing the look away mechanic. I main DNC in DSR and I had an experience of clearing phase 5 with 3 deaths simply because we run DRG NIN DNC SMN and our damage overflows a lot. Now you tell me how can other jobs bring this level of "consistency"? Nascent Flash??

[Kachou_]

The machinist brings consistency ....

EDITED-----

[Azuri]

I take it this doesn't include every single character/account, active or otherwise, just ones that are registered on that site.

Ah, no. Just the ones from The Lodestone. You know, that registry of every single character in FINAL FANTASY XIV ran by SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD.