Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Theodric]

On the subject of whether or not fantasy elements count as genocide or not, I'd say it's a pretty clear cut situation. A key definition of genocide involves the deliberate destruction and inability for a targeted race or culture to persist. How, exactly, such a goal comes about is largely irrelevant to the definition. It's the consequences of the act and whether it is intentional that matter the most.

I don't think we can brush it off as 'fantastical' either. If someone were to unleash a zombie plague upon a race or nation and it resulted in the deaths and reanimation of those targeted then technically it could be said that those people still exist in some form because they're still shambling about as undead corpses.

Yet those targeted no longer have their memories, culture or original forms. For all intents and purposes, they no longer exist as they did.

Had the Sundering been an accident then the situation would have been murkier - but it was not an accident. It was a deliberate act.

As an aside, it's always interesting when a thread like this gets so many new pages. I keep seeing certain posters declare that they're 'done' discussing the Ancients and/or that they'd rather not get more additional lore related to them. It's a bit confusing, then, when those same posters then emerge at the first opportunity to...continue discussing the Ancients.

[Kozh]

As an aside, it's always interesting when a thread like this gets so many new pages. I keep seeing certain posters declare that they're 'done' discussing the Ancients and/or that they'd rather not get more additional lore related to them. It's a bit confusing, then, when those same posters then emerge at the first opportunity to...continue discussing the Ancients.

Now, now, don't be too harsh on them. How else are they going to make the lore forum seems alive then?

[Lauront]

Even then, following your own established train of logic; a surgeon who divested every human on the Earth of an arm or leg simultaneously would still be seen by the world at large as a crazed criminal who divested all of humankind of a crucial limb they require to keep living in the manner in which they have up to this moment. Nobody at all is going to argue in favour of this surgeon beyond the insane and immoral, and he would be condemned at large even should he state his goal to be "I did this to benefit mankind, they were relying on their right arms far too much and this reliance was bringing down their quality of life."

One only need ask Guildivain of the SGE quest line how that ended for him, in his bid to alter his experimental subjects through force to "improve" them.

[RyuDragnier]

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it wasn’t perfect, that doesn't justify the act of genocide that Venat enacted in order to try and “save” it.

Nor can anything justify the genocide the Ancients were willing to perform on the new life to bring back the old. At this point I think we can all agree that after the Final Days, morality was thrown out the door.

[EaraGrace]

We don't see any apparently-sapient creatures out and about in Elpis (although, again, we keep getting quests in the Sundered world that establish whatever random species we've been murdering to make hair regrowth tonic has actually been sapient all along, with the game not seeming to regard this as particularly weird, which suggests some awkward double standards on the part of the writers), just Meteion and the Lyssa, which we hear about second-hand.

But once again those quests that end with that realization are also largely paired with a newfound commitment to protect that sapient life. Take the quests in Labyrinthos for example where we find out a small troll is capable of speech. As soon as this is realized multiple characters spring into action to help them, and the questline ends with them receiving treatment befitting a sapient being. We don’t see that reflected in Elpis, where once again the plan for the Lyssa was to make it more intelligent for further experimentation.

Meteion is a personal project of Hermes that only a handful of people know anything about, while the sapience of the Lyssa is clearly an accident - like you said, the note we find describes the Ancients as being delighted and surprised. Even when it comes to Familars, all the other ones we encounter in game are just animals. Even Venat's proto-Loporitt doesn't speak.

They then go on to say it should be given vocal cords on a whim. I think that’s where I’m getting wires crossed.

I don't think there's any basis to think they had some kind of broader servant class of sapient creations in the same way as the Quarians. Again, there's a whole quest chain where the researchers are fascinated (and occasionally a little worried) by your apparent intelligence as a special case, and seem a little taken aback when you do things like express discomfort with their creation-testing process; as soon as you speak to them 'on their level', they start questioning themselves. While the Ancients seem sort of flippant about the issue, it seems more like they're naive than exploitative. They haven't fully considered the implications of co-existing with other life capable of advanced thought because it's so uncommon.

Is it because it’s uncommon or because they simply aren’t concerned enough to consider it a problem? No one reacts to Meteions free will, a fact Hermes is willing to tell random people, as if it were novel or special. Our interactions where we question others doesn’t yield anything, it either ends with them being surprised by our abilities or patting us on the head and talking about our “novel” perspective. I guess I’m struggling to see evidence that the Ancients considered the ethics of intelligence. I think they are definitely capable of doing so, I just don’t think their value system includes that consideration.

You're not wrong about it being kinda irresponsible, but it's not institutional slavery.

Sure, but I’d say it gives Hermes perspective more weight when that’s a problem.

I mean, Venat and her followers left Zodiark intact with all the Ancient souls inside who seemed to have been operating under the assumption they'd eventually be freed.

We’re they? Emets speech in Amaurot about how moral and amazing the Ancients compared to the Sundered would become kind of nonsensical if that was always the plan. It wouldn’t be as a great a sacrifice after all.

You can wade through the tangled and messy writing of the Sundering scenario in general and say that it was necessary for Venat's plan to keep Zodiark alive regardless of the morals of the issue, but it's still less walking away from Omelas and more taking issue with which baby is being tortured.

I can see your point, but I’m always going to hold that volunteering is different from being volunteered. Because I like hypotheticals too much, imagine your fighting a war and need a group to sacrifice themselves to end it. A number of people volunteer and head off to a roaring success, an incredible moral act that should be honored. However, afterwards you find out you can retrieve them, but doing so would require you to send another group. This time though there’s no one to volunteer, and you must choose between sending people without asking or not going at all. What’s the moral choice?

To me, the fact that the initial group volunteered means they are the moral choice to leave behind. If there were means to retrieve them that didn’t require another sacrifice then sure, but since there’s not and since the only other option is sacrifice more, the answer is clear.

As an aside, it's always interesting when a thread like this gets so many new pages. I keep seeing certain posters declare that they're 'done' discussing the Ancients and/or that they'd rather not get more additional lore related to them. It's a bit confusing, then, when those same posters then emerge at the first opportunity to...continue discussing the Ancients.

How about you stop vagueposting Theo and say this to those people directly.

[Lyth]

It's a bit worrying how quick we are to dismiss the Convocation's proposed sacrifices as 'unintelligent' life. That's the exact same party line that the Ascians used to justify the horrific atrocities that they committed against our societies over the past twelve thousand years - by claiming that we were somehow less than human.

It's difficult to buy into their jingoistic claims when you see how twisted their leadership was. Lahabrea murdered his wife, allowed his subordinates to be experimented on, and hid away the evidence at risk to his entire civilization. Mitron forcibly merged souls with his former lover against her will and tried to destroy her memories to get his way. Elidibus tried to release chemical weapons to destroy both his own armies as well as innocent civilians in Eorzea, only to run away like a coward when challenged over it. Venat robbed her society of their godhood and rendered them vulnerable to pestilence, famine, war, death, and paying taxes. Hermes not only brought about the destruction of his own civilization, but accelerated the destruction of countless others. Former Convocation members all.

And in the midst of all this, we have Emet-Selch, who not only resolutely believed in his own racial superiority, but had the gall to ask us to remember his people after he lost the battle to exterminate ours. What about the civilizations of the seven worlds that he murdered? The ones that we never had an opportunity to ever visit? Who will remember them? Who will tell their story? And we're expected to somehow prop him up as some fallen hero, to be celebrated in the very remembrance event of a calamity that he perpetuated.

No, I don't think that his kind deserves any such favours. Let them fade out of the story, and away from memory. And if we ever get the opportunity to learn about the other non-Amaurotine civilizations from the Ancient world, let's hope that their spiritualism, compassion and generosity earn them the love of the players from a standpoint of mutual respect. Enough with the Amaurotine pretenders and their hollow pride. Give us a people like the Cetra. Let's see some real caretakers of the planet.

[SentioftheHoukai]

But once again those quests that end with that realization are also largely paired with a newfound commitment to protect that sapient life. Take the quests in Labyrinthos for example where we find out a small troll is capable of speech. As soon as this is realized multiple characters spring into action to help them, and the questline ends with them receiving treatment befitting a sapient being. We don’t see that reflected in Elpis, where once again the plan for the Lyssa was to make it more intelligent for further experimentation.

I'm afraid I recall no such thing occuring for the vast majority of wildlife we personally extinguish in the game, and frankly one example does not a rule make. Forget the trolls for just a moment, if you please. Recall the many and numerous counterexamples in A Realm Reborn, Heavensward, Stormblood, Shadowbringers..... and oh yes, ENDWALKER ITSELF. We don't exactly stop to hold a ceremony for the unfortunate demise of every squirrel, gorilla, opo-opo and pugil that we murder for their raw materials, now do we? In Endwalker it was revealed that literally anything could be bestowed a soul and you couldn't even tell right off the bat, the process was entirely random and decided by the Lifestream which nobody can truly control. Where is all the concern for THEM, since we have since stooped to potentially sapient animals.

Or better yet, let's use Stormblood's raid auspices and Aglaia's god formes as an example! For all we know, our vicious animal slaughters could very well have inadvertently prevented the birth of countless wise and honored auspice Elders. Is this not a terrible, unforgivable crime by the same flimsy logic we so often use to condemn the Ancients? "We couldn't possibly have known" doesn't work as an excuse, because not every Ancient was as morally bankrupt as Athena. Most could also pass with the excuse "I had no idea the creation I just extinguished, and that one over there that I lobotomized last week had souls!" so why are they somehow less entitled to the ignorance and naivete that the Sundered acquire in spades?

How about you stop vagueposting Theo and say this to those people directly.

Gonna be honest here.... This isn't the dunk you think it is. You frankly look no better than Theo with your hyper-aggressive "Why don't you come over here and say it to my FACE!" posts. But since we're on the subject, I do seem to recall either Lurina or Brinne calling some on here out for the same thing. Vagueposting without quoting those making the arguments in order to facilitate an easier time dismantling someone's argument while they may or may not be on the forum to defend their point of view at that particular point in time. Why is it that you never seem to call Lyth, or Cleretic, or Iscah, or Kari out for the manners of behaviour you call us malicious and nefarious Zodiark Trancers out for, I wonder~

After all, we just had a example on a Juri thread not that long ago of this manner of hypocrisy, making my point all the more relevant. Find me in the Alps if I cannot pinpoint just what exactly makes your allies exempt from this manner of criticism.

It's a bit worrying how quick we are to dismiss the Convocation's proposed sacrifices as 'unintelligent' life. That's the exact same party line that the Ascians used to justify the horrific atrocities that they committed against our societies over the past twelve thousand years - by claiming that we were somehow less than human.

Have we already forgotten how Kari literally just used this same "party line", as you call it to justify Venat's Sundering? I mean, come on if you're gonna make insinuations like these at least apply them fairly and equally.

And in the midst of all this, we have Emet-Selch, who not only resolutely believed in his own racial superiority, but had the gall to ask us to remember his people after he lost the battle to exterminate ours. What about the civilizations of the seven worlds that he murdered? The ones that we never had an opportunity to ever visit? Who will remember them? Who will tell their story? And we're expected to somehow prop him up as some fallen hero, to be celebrated in the very remembrance event of a calamity that he perpetuated.

We're forced in story to do exactly this for the sake of the omnicidal murderer Venat, so you'll simply have to forgive me if I fail to not grant the same dubious honor to Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three before they became the villains they were when we ended their pitiful half-lives. What about all the lives Venat ended? Oh right, you don't care about them and their deaths were justified on the basis of how evil Amaurotians were. All of them, every last single soul on the Star. Evil, baby-murdering, opo-opo sacrificing cultists all. Kill every last one of them, nobody at all will mind. After all, you can't quite be bigoted against a race that DOESN'T EXIST~

Right?

No, I don't think that his kind deserves any such favours. Let them fade out of the story, and away from memory. And if we ever get the opportunity to learn about the other non-Amaurotine civilizations from the Ancient world, let's hope that their spiritualism, compassion and generosity earn them the love of the players from a standpoint of mutual respect. Enough with the Amaurotine pretenders and their hollow pride. Give us a people like the Cetra. Let's see some real caretakers of the planet.

No thanks, apply this equally and evenly or not at all. The only way the Ancients get to be buried and forgotten is if the constant Venat toadie reminders cease as well. No other compromise will ever be deemed acceptable.

It's like Meteion said herself, the Ancients tried their very best despite themselves and yet nevertheless found themselves having failed regardless. Funny then, that this forum seems so convinced that the Sundered couldn't and haven't yet managed to resurrect and emulate literally ANY of their flaws. Personally, I smell a double standard~ ;3

[redheadturk]

The focus i had was less on the academic question of whether or not the actions of pre-modern societies can be characterized as genocide, but more that genocide itself is something that societies to do classes of people in a large, collaborative sense, regardless of the era it happens in.

Taking away someone's godhood, or destroying universes to smoosh fractured souls together exist in a completely different realm of abstraction to me.

Identity death is still death, thereby the sundering is still genocide.

[Thenightvortex]

Nor can anything justify the genocide the Ancients were willing to perform on the new life to bring back the old. At this point I think we can all agree that after the Final Days, morality was thrown out the door.

We don’t know what they were actually going to sacrifice. I know there’s been a lot of debate whether it’s sapient beings, animals, just life energy in general etc. Devs left it vary vague and considering that they don’t ever mention the third sacrifice as a part of Venat’s reasoning, I can only assume they did not intend it to be people with souls or “kinda forgot” about that plot point since SHB(wouldn’t be surprised tbh).

Either way, I am not claiming that the convocation were paragons of morality. They were desperate people pushed to desperate measures, I’d argue far more desperate than Venat considering they had zero knowledge of what was causing the final days.

[KariTheFox]

I mean. She made up an entire fake story for the Sundering where she and Zodiark were actual, for-real Gods and the Ancients didn't even exist, which she tells the player during the 3.X patches and presumably been telling people since civilization was set back to zero by her actions. She admits to deceiving you on that basis at the start of Endwalker.

I mean, the 3.x stuff is kind of a continuity snarl regarding the Zodiark and Hydaelyn backstory since it was clearly written before everything else, it's kind of hard to reconcile with the story as written later, so I just chalk it up to a bit of writing weirdness rather than evidence of Venat being a sinister manipulator behind the scenes (since that clearly isn't the intention of the rest of the story, once they figured out who and what Venat actually was.)

But if you really want a Watsonian explanation for that part, it's important to remember that the WoL recounted all of thier adventures to Venat, including the parts where Emet-Selch was the one reveal the true nature of Zodiark, and what Hydaelyn had told the WoL back in 3.x. In order to perserve the timeline up to the point where the WoL travels back to Elpis, Venat has to follow that script.

But yes, she did want the ancients forgotten - but that involved simply not disseminating information about them, not actively erasing any of them. Any civilication with sufficently advanced archological tools can go digging for evidence of them, and now space-faring civilications can communicate with the Watcher and Lolopritts on the moon to learn about the ancients.

Maybe Venat should have done more to actively perserve the culture of her people, but failing to do that is far and away from intentional efforts by genocidal regimes to actively erase the cultures of people they genocided.