Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Lurina]

See I actually have to hard disagree. The example of the Lyssa in Ktisis suggests they played fast and loose with sentience.

Let me use an example because I'm playing through Mass Effect again atm. Long story short, a group called the Quarians created synthetic helpers to handle their labor needs and gave them a very limited level of intelligence that was nowhere near sentience. Unintentionally however, they eventually did develop sentience. The Quarians, realizing what happened, went "oh no, we basically have slaves now," and quickly panicked thinking the Geth would rise up. This led to them trying to destroy the Geth and losing their homeworld.

Now the game rightfully points out how badly the Quarians fucked up, but I think the initial reaction is interesting to compare. The Quarians overreact and believe their slaves would destroy them because of their sentience, the Ancients go "wow neat! we should remake it with vocal cords for more experiments!" It kind of highlights what makes me squick at the Ancients handling of these things. They have the knowledge to know what is sentient and what isn't, the power to protect and coexist with that sentience without much cost, and yet they don't seem to care. I compare that to the Sundered, who yes struggle with this as well and deserve to be called out when aren't in the right, but still have many who try their best like with city states and the Allied tribes. In the Ancient world its just really Hermes who seems to care.

We don't see any apparently-sapient creatures out and about in Elpis (although, again, we keep getting quests in the Sundered world that establish whatever random species we've been murdering to make hair regrowth tonic has actually been sapient all along, with the game not seeming to regard this as particularly weird, which suggests some awkward double standards on the part of the writers), just Meteion and the Lyssa, which we hear about second-hand. Meteion is a personal project of Hermes that only a handful of people know anything about, while the sapience of the Lyssa is clearly an accident - like you said, the note we find describes the Ancients as being delighted and surprised. Even when it comes to Familars, all the other ones we encounter in game are just animals. Even Venat's proto-Loporitt doesn't speak.

I don't think there's any basis to think they had some kind of broader servant class of sapient creations in the same way as the Quarians. Again, there's a whole quest chain where the researchers are fascinated (and occasionally a little worried) by your apparent intelligence as a special case, and seem a little taken aback when you do things like express discomfort with their creation-testing process; as soon as you speak to them 'on their level', they start questioning themselves. While the Ancients seem sort of flippant about the issue, it seems more like they're naive than exploitative. They haven't fully considered the implications of co-existing with other life capable of advanced thought because it's so uncommon.

You're not wrong about it being kinda irresponsible, but it's not institutional slavery.

In that sense, Venat and her followers were not only Walking Away From Omelas, but making the city uninhabitable on thier way out too.

I mean, Venat and her followers left Zodiark intact with all the Ancient souls inside who seemed to have been operating under the assumption they'd eventually be freed. You can wade through the tangled and messy writing of the Sundering scenario in general and say that it was necessary for Venat's plan to keep Zodiark alive regardless of the morals of the issue, but it's still less walking away from Omelas and more taking issue with which baby is being tortured.

[EaraGrace]

We don't see any apparently-sapient creatures out and about in Elpis (although, again, we keep getting quests in the Sundered world that establish whatever random species we've been murdering to make hair regrowth tonic has actually been sapient all along, with the game not seeming to regard this as particularly weird, which suggests some awkward double standards on the part of the writers), just Meteion and the Lyssa, which we hear about second-hand.

But once again those quests that end with that realization are also largely paired with a newfound commitment to protect that sapient life. Take the quests in Labyrinthos for example where we find out a small troll is capable of speech. As soon as this is realized multiple characters spring into action to help them, and the questline ends with them receiving treatment befitting a sapient being. We don’t see that reflected in Elpis, where once again the plan for the Lyssa was to make it more intelligent for further experimentation.

Meteion is a personal project of Hermes that only a handful of people know anything about, while the sapience of the Lyssa is clearly an accident - like you said, the note we find describes the Ancients as being delighted and surprised. Even when it comes to Familars, all the other ones we encounter in game are just animals. Even Venat's proto-Loporitt doesn't speak.

They then go on to say it should be given vocal cords on a whim. I think that’s where I’m getting wires crossed.

I don't think there's any basis to think they had some kind of broader servant class of sapient creations in the same way as the Quarians. Again, there's a whole quest chain where the researchers are fascinated (and occasionally a little worried) by your apparent intelligence as a special case, and seem a little taken aback when you do things like express discomfort with their creation-testing process; as soon as you speak to them 'on their level', they start questioning themselves. While the Ancients seem sort of flippant about the issue, it seems more like they're naive than exploitative. They haven't fully considered the implications of co-existing with other life capable of advanced thought because it's so uncommon.

Is it because it’s uncommon or because they simply aren’t concerned enough to consider it a problem? No one reacts to Meteions free will, a fact Hermes is willing to tell random people, as if it were novel or special. Our interactions where we question others doesn’t yield anything, it either ends with them being surprised by our abilities or patting us on the head and talking about our “novel” perspective. I guess I’m struggling to see evidence that the Ancients considered the ethics of intelligence. I think they are definitely capable of doing so, I just don’t think their value system includes that consideration.

You're not wrong about it being kinda irresponsible, but it's not institutional slavery.

Sure, but I’d say it gives Hermes perspective more weight when that’s a problem.

I mean, Venat and her followers left Zodiark intact with all the Ancient souls inside who seemed to have been operating under the assumption they'd eventually be freed.

We’re they? Emets speech in Amaurot about how moral and amazing the Ancients compared to the Sundered would become kind of nonsensical if that was always the plan. It wouldn’t be as a great a sacrifice after all.

You can wade through the tangled and messy writing of the Sundering scenario in general and say that it was necessary for Venat's plan to keep Zodiark alive regardless of the morals of the issue, but it's still less walking away from Omelas and more taking issue with which baby is being tortured.

I can see your point, but I’m always going to hold that volunteering is different from being volunteered. Because I like hypotheticals too much, imagine your fighting a war and need a group to sacrifice themselves to end it. A number of people volunteer and head off to a roaring success, an incredible moral act that should be honored. However, afterwards you find out you can retrieve them, but doing so would require you to send another group. This time though there’s no one to volunteer, and you must choose between sending people without asking or not going at all. What’s the moral choice?

To me, the fact that the initial group volunteered means they are the moral choice to leave behind. If there were means to retrieve them that didn’t require another sacrifice then sure, but since there’s not and since the only other option is sacrifice more, the answer is clear.

As an aside, it's always interesting when a thread like this gets so many new pages. I keep seeing certain posters declare that they're 'done' discussing the Ancients and/or that they'd rather not get more additional lore related to them. It's a bit confusing, then, when those same posters then emerge at the first opportunity to...continue discussing the Ancients.

How about you stop vagueposting Theo and say this to those people directly.