Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Thenightvortex]

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it was perfect, that doesn't justify the acts of genocide the ascians enacted in order to try and restore it.

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it wasn’t perfect, that doesn't justify the act of genocide that Venat enacted in order to try and “save” it.

[RyuDragnier]

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it wasn’t perfect, that doesn't justify the act of genocide that Venat enacted in order to try and “save” it.

Nor can anything justify the genocide the Ancients were willing to perform on the new life to bring back the old. At this point I think we can all agree that after the Final Days, morality was thrown out the door.

[Thenightvortex]

Nor can anything justify the genocide the Ancients were willing to perform on the new life to bring back the old. At this point I think we can all agree that after the Final Days, morality was thrown out the door.

We don’t know what they were actually going to sacrifice. I know there’s been a lot of debate whether it’s sapient beings, animals, just life energy in general etc. Devs left it vary vague and considering that they don’t ever mention the third sacrifice as a part of Venat’s reasoning, I can only assume they did not intend it to be people with souls or “kinda forgot” about that plot point since SHB(wouldn’t be surprised tbh).

Either way, I am not claiming that the convocation were paragons of morality. They were desperate people pushed to desperate measures, I’d argue far more desperate than Venat considering they had zero knowledge of what was causing the final days.

[RyuDragnier]

We don’t know what we’re they actually going to sacrifice. I know there’s been a lot of debate whether it’s sapient beings, animals, just life energy in general etc. Devs left it vary vague and considering that they don’t ever mention the third sacrifice as a part of Venat’s reasoning, I can only assume they did not intend it to be people with souls or “kinda forgot” about that plot point since SHB(wouldn’t be surprised tbh).

Either way, I am not claiming that the convocation were paragons of morality. They were desperate people pushed to desperate measures, I’d argue far more desperate than Venat considering they had zero knowledge of what was causing the final days.

I'm still of the mindset they didn't say what the 3rd set of sacrifices were intentionally. Say they were animals, people would state the Ancients were correct and Venat never should have done what she did. State they were sapient life like people, and the Ancients were incorrect and Venat was right to do what she did. Not give an answer...and it leaves the entire area morally grey with neither side looking like the correct party. And I agree, the Convocation and Ancients were incredibly desperate to perform the sacrifices they did.

[Iscah]

I'm still of the mindset they didn't say what the 3rd set of sacrifices were intentionally. Say they were animals, people would state the Ancients were correct and Venat never should have done what she did. State they were sapient life like people, and the Ancients were incorrect and Venat was right to do what she did. Not give an answer...and it leaves the entire area morally grey with neither side looking like the correct party. And I agree, the Convocation and Ancients were incredibly desperate to perform the sacrifices they did.

It feels like they're doing it because they want the story to be deep and controversial and debatable, but if they are doing that artificially by withholding critical information then that just feels unfair.

[Lauront]

I'm still of the mindset they didn't say what the 3rd set of sacrifices were intentionally. Say they were animals, people would state the Ancients were correct and Venat never should have done what she did. State they were sapient life like people, and the Ancients were incorrect and Venat was right to do what she did. Not give an answer...and it leaves the entire area morally grey with neither side looking like the correct party. And I agree, the Convocation and Ancients were incredibly desperate to perform the sacrifices they did.

That's fine but if you concede that we really don't know what was involved, and none of the writing centres her motivation on what was involved so much as what these sacrifices would accomplish (her faction believed they'd lead to their people failing to grow in some sense), how exactly are you determining what was involved to use that term? I actually don't think the default answer would be "they were correct", because EW has never really hinged its entire case on that point in the first place - it has other wobbly foundations it tries to rest it upon. This may surprise you but I don't think these sacrifices were necessarily the best plan - whatever they were, I just don't consider them to be worthy of genociding their entire race, nor were they given the full picture to understand what potential issues there were in pressing down that path. However, it has little to do with what was being sacrificed, because it's not even remotely central to her crew's reasoning, to the extent that they even understood the full picture.

[Brinne]

If we are going to seriously sit down and try to solve, in-universe, "what was the content of the third sacrifice" in a way that goes beyond "lol writers dodging the subject":

It's probably still fundamentally unknowable, and will be for all eternity, because in all likelihood, the actual subjects of the third sacrifice never got the chance to even come into existence.

The plan for the third sacrifice was one that would be cultivated gradually, over the long term and probably multiple generations, as the surviving Ancients slowly nurtured their planet back to life until it was "bursting with vitality." They never got the chance to do this--therefore, it's likely not even they knew what the potential third sacrifice would actually look like, beyond a general source of life energy, because we've seen multiple times the Ancients conceding that how souls manifest, and what is accepted by the star as authentic life, is a realm outside of their control.

The lives that would comprise third sacrifice never had the chance to be born to begin with. They didn't get that far. No one knew in-universe exactly what it was going to be, either, and honestly, the plan was probably to cross the bridge of the finer logistics once they'd come to it. Ultimately, the broad outline of the long-term plan never even had a chance to get rolling because Venat objected on a purely ideological basis from the very beginning.

[EaraGrace]

I'm afraid I recall no such thing occuring for the vast majority of wildlife we personally extinguish in the game, and frankly one example does not a rule make. Forget the trolls for just a moment, if you please. Recall the many and numerous counterexamples in A Realm Reborn, Heavensward, Stormblood, Shadowbringers..... and oh yes, ENDWALKER ITSELF. We don't exactly stop to hold a ceremony for the unfortunate demise of every squirrel, gorilla, opo-opo and pugil that we murder for their raw materials, now do we? In Endwalker it was revealed that literally anything could be bestowed a soul and you couldn't even tell right off the bat, the process was entirely random and decided by the Lifestream which nobody can truly control. Where is all the concern for THEM, since we have since stooped to potentially sapient animals.

Still haven't given me proof of nepotism Senti. But sure how about you prove that the opo opo can speak and well go from there. You want to make the basis for moral consideration be "potential" sapience. Show me an example of beings that have that that didn't aggro to us first.

Gonna be honest here.... This isn't the dunk you think it is. You frankly look no better than Theo with your hyper-aggressive "Why don't you come over here and say it to my FACE!" posts. But since we're on the subject, I do seem to recall either Lurina or Brinne calling some on here out for the same thing. Vagueposting without quoting those making the arguments in order to facilitate an easier time dismantling someone's argument while they may or may not be on the forum to defend their point of view at that particular point in time. Why is it that you never seem to call Lyth, or Cleretic, or Iscah, or Kari out for the manners of behaviour you call us malicious and nefarious Zodiark Trancers out for, I wonder~

God you clearly have nothing but whataboutisms to contribute with.

If we are going to seriously sit down and try to solve, in-universe, "what was the content of the third sacrifice" in a way that goes beyond "lol writers dodging the subject":

It's probably still fundamentally unknowable, and will be for all eternity, because in all likelihood, the actual subjects of the third sacrifice never got the chance to even come into existence.

The plan for the third sacrifice was one that would be cultivated gradually, over the long term and probably multiple generations, as the surviving Ancients slowly nurtured their planet back to life until it was "bursting with vitality." They never got the chance to do this--therefore, it's likely not even they knew what the potential third sacrifice would actually look like, beyond a general source of life energy, because we've seen multiple times the Ancients conceding that how souls manifest, and what is accepted by the star as authentic life, is a realm outside of their control.

I have to again point to the dialogue following our fake Hyth convo.

Y'shtola: What of you, Forename? Was aught worthy of interest said during your efforts to obtain a writ?

Alphinaud: A great sacrifice of life in exchange for their brethren's resurrection... And you say all the Ascians' scheming has been leading to this!?

All this time... But if they still mean to enact this plan, then things won't end with the Rejoining...

Y'shtola: ...Aye, I thought we knew their intentions in full: restore the world to its former glory, and, in turn, empower Zodiark to reclaim His throne as the will of the star.
Yet that was merely a step along the way. I hesitate to put it into words, but we have to assume that following the final Rejoining, the Ascians mean to draw on the lives of the Source to make their sacrifice to Zodiark.

Alphinaud: That does seem the most likely scenario. Mayhap those who ally with the Ascians would be spared that fate...

But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act.

Alisaie: Of course not. And that's to say naught of what Emet-Selch plans for the Exarch's power. Do we stand by and let him threaten our future as well as our past?
We need to find him, Forename. And when we do...

Make your mark. Change the course of history in a way that's felt by those who came before, and those who came after; by everyone you've ever met.

Change things so that even my other self, dying somewhere in that future Calamity will smile and say, “I knew you would win.”

I've seen many quote Alphinauds line, but what of the rest of it? Its clear that the Scions are concluding that the humans on the Source will be sacrificed, based solely on what fake Hyth told us. Concluding that this is an incorrect reading of that conversation, that they were intending to sacrifice anything but human beings, is to say the Scions are also wrong, which is nonsensical writing. So we are left with two choices. Either the writers were telling us the initial sacrifice were intended to be humans, or the writers of ShB and EW lost the plot several years ago.