Auto-crit buffs have pushed melee too far ahead of Casters (and MCH)

[CKNovel]

Blkack Mage is also 500 DPS ahead of his casters counterpart RDM/SMN. So don't hold on saying there isn't favoritism~ People call it the res tax and quite frankly, res was pretty good on door boss in p8s but pretty unusable most the time in p8s second boss.

Ah yes, we had our caster who wanted to swap to RDM for fast res when we were on P8S Doorboss enrage and we just told them that one K.O. debuff would be enough to screw the DPS check.
"Res tax" except you pay a tax for a worthless tool when you actually need the DPS.

If progging, what stops the healer from keeping their swiftcast for res?

[Aikaal]

Ah yes, we had our caster who wanted to swap to RDM for fast res when we were on P8S Doorboss enrage and we just told them that one K.O. debuff would be enough to screw the DPS check.
"Res tax" except you pay a tax for a worthless tool when you actually need the DPS.

If progging, what stops the healer from keeping their swiftcast for res?

Pretty much. The one good thing about red mage is the ability of triple res and still keep going and see further mechanics. Outside of that, it won't save a DPS check. Week 2 both healers died near the end and believe it or not, RDM res actually saved the clear. But again, DPS check is none existent on p7s for my group :<

The auto crit DH buff really wrecked the balance of this game. Reaction over abad design on Samurai. Our dear Samurais are becoming Ronins at this rate.

[Deole]

Why can’t people just be happy. Jobs aren’t that unbalanced. The variances are what make them unique. Great! Melee dps got some boost. Now ranged wants it too? Sweet let’s also give ranged positionals. And every put second wind on a 5 second cool down so we don’t need healers. I like to think SE pays more attention than people think. Usually things are pretty balanced. As a tank PLD and WAR complain they don’t have the raid damage DRK and GNB do and it’s unfair. To me that’s like the pure healer and shield healer. PLD and WAR have loads of self sustain. DRK and GNB don’t. So may drop some tank dps but gain some healer dps when they don’t have to babysit as much. A lot of the time people complain and they just don’t understand it. Dark mind … oh it’s magic mitigation only so stupid… but it’s 20%… every 60seconds… and most raid wides are well. Magic. So yea… tldr. It’s fine.

[Deole]

Oh except MCH… not the BLM of physical ranged for sure.

[Ransu]

The auto crit DH buff really wrecked the balance of this game. Reaction over abad design on Samurai. Our dear Samurais are becoming Ronins at this rate.

Honestly I'm grateful for it. I love my SAM, but hopping over to BLM has given me the most joy out of savage raiding in a long time. BLM is insanely rewarding and made me realize how simplistic the melee have become over the years. Granted I'm sure BLM has seen QoL stuff over the years as well to ease certain things, but my last foray into BLM was back in ARR where infinity flare was a thing xD. That said, I do kinda wish BLM pumped out just a bit more DPS given how much harder they have to work compared to SAM/MNK, but aside from that I'm super happy I jumped over to BLM.

That aside, ya the physical ranged could use a buff, especially MCH being the "selfish" dps now. Theoretically they have 100% uptime so I get why they get that ranged tax dps, but its a bit too severe on MCH right now. I can't really comment on SMN, but RDM I feel like shouldn't have too high of a DPS given their other utilities to the party.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Their is actually a more problematic thing than "Balance of classes".

I've seen this many time on Social Media, sometimes even on Youtube, but P8S P1 make Ink flow a lot and this is due to bad balance of job too.

The actual "Balance" of the jobs aren't good. First of all, the DPS Check for P8S is incredibly tight, even forcing some Week 1 player to switch classes in order to reach the DPS Check.

And this is the actual problem :

No player, either Hard-core, Mid-core, Casual etc etc.... Should change classes in order to meet some requirements. This is not normal.

Let's take an exemple :

A composition with DRK/GNB can pass P8S

A composition With WAR/PLD/MCH can't pass P8S not matter how hard they try

Those two things are considered Week 1 clear. One composition can do it, while the other is trying the impossible.

Job balance must be done in accordance with the Raid Tier, and vice-versa. It's not normal to have some job being completely unable to Week 1 while other can.

Every job will suffer from a "Tax" it can be anything : Mobility, Defensive Utility, Offensive Utility, etc etc... and this goes on.

Therefore, a Job like MCH with great Mobility, will hit less than a BLM who is literraly a standing turret. This is logical.

A job that don't give anything to the team shouldn't be less effective than the other.

Actually MCH give 500 DPS less to the team than a BRD and 700 Less than a DNC. Yes DNC is ahead of Bard.

This is not logical. Or at least, not by such a margin.

500 DPS less over a 10 minute fight is worth 300k Damage (Which is somewhere between 12.000 to 14.000 Potency without any critical damage and must be considered following stuff. I calculated this using a 615 weapon on RPR with an Ilvl of 617. That's why the gap I told is that wide, it's an approximation). If I reverse the Math here. The MCH will need a buff of 55 Potency per 2.5 gcd in order to catch up. Globaly this mean that an upgrade of 60 Potency per combo attack for the machinist will barely make him able to catch up to a BRD.

The more the DPS widen between class, the worst it will go. I'm afraid that if nothing is done for 6.4, the mch will be behind by 800-1k DPS, and that will be critical.

Here's some approximativ number (Don't take it too seriously !) that some classe need to be able to do something on this raid tier.

Tanks :

WAR/PLD : Need around 27 Potency more per 2.5 Sec in order to be completely equal to the GNB. I think a boost of 20 Potency per 2.5 sec should be enough to catch up. (Around 650 Potency per minute)

Melee :

RPR against Samourai (who is the second least good DPS according to certain site in average) : Need around 19.5 Potency per 2.5 sec to be able to catch up to the samourai AT LEAST (Around 470 Potency per minute) . If compared with the monk, the value increase to 62 Potency per 2.5 sec ! (around 1500 Potency per minute, so... It's basically one Communio Crit/DH more per minute in order to catch up to the monk)


Caster :

The balance on those one is the least shocking to me, because BLM is in the spot he should be, compared to the other caster. So I won't say anything on those

Ranged :

As above, MCH will need at least 55 Potency per 2.5 sec in order to be effective in a raid group (Those 55 will make it equal to a bard rDPS ACTUALLY ! But he will certainly need a more consistent buff due to the fact that stuff will upgrade in the near future and the rDPS Gap will widen because of that.). Again, we are somewhere around 1320 Potency per minute for the MCH. It's insane !


Therefore, I'm not surprised that a composition with MCH/PLD/WAR can't do P8S when the group lack more than 2600 Potency per minute (Which is incredibly high) due to bad balancing.

[Aikaal]

Why can’t people just be happy.

People aren't happy because the Crit/DH change favored a few jobs. Jobs that were already top. Monk and Samurai? Seriously? Other jobs were not compensate so when you're melee DPS that was about 8% ahead of SMN/RDM is now about 10% and I didn't get a buff on my SMN/RDM; yeah, I think it is a legitimate reason to be upset because they didn't think this through.

Regarding PLD/WAR and I'm really sorry to put it this way but their utility isn't needed. What's needed is DPS.

That aside, ya the physical ranged could use a buff, especially MCH being the "selfish" dps now. Theoretically they have 100% uptime so I get why they get that ranged tax dps, but its a bit too severe on MCH right now. I can't really comment on SMN, but RDM I feel like shouldn't have too high of a DPS given their other utilities to the party.

Melee DPS get 100% uptime so that's really not a good argument to use to justify the DPS gap. Mechanics are designed for Melees to never lose GCD and when they'd lose GCDs; boss goes invuln. RDM actually has an harder time than Melees to keep 100% uptime.

Their is actually a more problematic thing than "Balance of classes".
Melee :

RPR against Samourai (who is the second least good DPS according to certain site in average) : Need around 19.5 Potency per 2.5 sec to be able to catch up to the samourai AT LEAST (Around 470 Potency per minute) . If compared with the monk, the value increase to 62 Potency per 2.5 sec ! (around 1500 Potency per minute, so... It's basically one Communio Crit/DH more per minute in order to catch up to the monk)


Caster :

The balance on those one is the least shocking to me, because BLM is in the spot he should be, compared to the other caster. So I won't say anything on those

Ranged :

As above, MCH will need at least 55 Potency per 2.5 sec in order to be effective in a raid group (Those 55 will make it equal to a bard rDPS ACTUALLY ! But he will certainly need a more consistent buff due to the fact that stuff will upgrade in the near future and the rDPS Gap will widen because of that.). Again, we are somewhere around 1320 Potency per minute for the MCH. It's insane !


Therefore, I'm not surprised that a composition with MCH/PLD/WAR can't do P8S when the group lack more than 2600 Potency per minute (Which is incredibly high) due to bad balancing.

Here's the issue. It always should be melee, ranged, caster and flex. Melee DPS are so strong right now that it'S just 2 melees, caster and ranged. they dropped a 5th melee when caster and ranged dont have a 4th job in their category. They keep buffing melees because the 5th melee does bad damage, they don't adjust SMN/RDM and ranged.

The issue is the outdated mentality that melee needs about 10% extra damage because of melee downtime when they are making fights with no melee downtime.

[Atmaweapon510]

Utility doesn't exist independently of dps requirements. Right now, if you think of utility as the ability to make up for mistakes and still clear content, then the best utility right now is to bring BLM over another caster and let your healers res because the dps difference is so wide and the dps check so tight on P8S that only the dps gain from BLM over another caster can make up for a death, essentially making the utility gain from SMN or RDM useless from a clearing perspective.

There's also the fact that bosses can die before they use all of their mechanics, so even in the most lenient dps check scenarios, you also have to take into account "being able to make up for a mistake" vs "making a mechanic disappear so mistakes aren't even possible to make." The dps gulf is getting wide enough that this can feasibly happen.

[remiff]

People aren't happy because the Crit/DH change favored a few jobs. Jobs that were already top. Monk and Samurai? Seriously? Other jobs were not compensate so when you're melee DPS that was about 8% ahead of SMN/RDM is now about 10% and I didn't get a buff on my SMN/RDM; yeah, I think it is a legitimate reason to be upset because they didn't think this through.

Regarding PLD/WAR and I'm really sorry to put it this way but their utility isn't needed. What's needed is DPS.



Melee DPS get 100% uptime so that's really not a good argument to use to justify the DPS gap. Mechanics are designed for Melees to never lose GCD and when they'd lose GCDs; boss goes invuln. RDM actually has an harder time than Melees to keep 100% uptime.






Here's the issue. It always should be melee, ranged, caster and flex. Melee DPS are so strong right now that it'S just 2 melees, caster and ranged. they dropped a 5th melee when caster and ranged dont have a 4th job in their category. They keep buffing melees because the 5th melee does bad damage, they don't adjust SMN/RDM and ranged.

The issue is the outdated mentality that melee needs about 10% extra damage because of melee downtime when they are making fights with no melee downtime.

This was also the case on the first Eden tier, the melee had 10% more damage, and the summoner-red mage was at the same level as the bard, or even below.
only the blm was relatively strong in ''Eden's gate''.

After they made too big buffs on the casters ''they had destroyed the game balance'',
I think the difference should not exceed 4-6% under melee DPS,and the summoner and red mage should never be under the bard or dancer
RDPS included.

Machinist should also be max 4-6% below Melee DPS.

8-10% more DPS on Melee DPS is definitely way too much.

[Ransu]

Melee DPS get 100% uptime so that's really not a good argument to use to justify the DPS gap. Mechanics are designed for Melees to never lose GCD and when they'd lose GCDs; boss goes invuln. RDM actually has an harder time than Melees to keep 100% uptime.

There's mechanics in every fight last tier that could push melee out of range, but yes its not as severe as it used to be when the boss hitboxes were smaller and more mechanics pushed melee out more frequently. Either way, I agree that atm the disparity between ranged and melee is too wide.