Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

[esra01]

They have like real 200 raw dps difference at this point.
How on earth can that be a dealbreaker, change in dps job can actually create fivefold bigger effect than changing your tanks.

I had to switch from PLD to DRK on my raiding alt

My aDPS went up from 6.8k to 8.0k, a 1.2k DPS difference. Compared to my RDM that switched job to MNK that gained him 1.5k DPS increase. So yeah switching tank jobs have almost the same amount of impact as your DPS switching to the best DPS job

[Oizen]

Heres my take on this from a DRK main, I've barely played Paladin, I do not like playing the job, but I have nothing against those who do.

I've cleared up to P7S last week, all in party finder. Played with every combination availble to me and honestly I think that PLD is the one I'd think struggles the most, but not for damage reasons surprisingly. (or at least not ONLY for that reason)

The thing I found to be most cumbersome when playing with a PLD is the fact that their Invul's cooldown is 7 minutes long. And while I get the idea that its like that because its invul has the strongest effect, I feel like the expectations of an invul skill are different from what they used to be.
They're no longer "Oh fuck, Emergency Tank Privilege" buttons, but rather expected parts of your kit to be used at certain times to make mechanics go easier. This raid tier really stresses it with its excess of heavy DOT effects, ESPECIALLY P7S.
Beyond damage, there is another aspect of this game that isn't talked about as much as it probably should, and thats resources. By that I mean, defensive cooldowns, healing, mitigation, you name it. You only have so many so using the bare minimum possible is ideal for longevity, which leads to even higher damage.
Simply being able to only deal with those heavy bleeds on ONE tank opposed to two is huge, taken further by the fact that now the other tank can funnel their cheap mitigation into the tank with the DOT. TBN specifically is amazing for easing the pain of these DoT Debuffs, making them much less stressful on your team.

Simply put, if you have a WAR and a DRK you can alternate these bleeds pretty well and still get your invul back at the end of the fight. GNB is also fine. All of these tanks can comfortably use their invuls in cycles.
PLD can do this as well but really only once per fight, and I think thats a pretty big detriment compared to others which can safely do it twice. Theres a prevailing strat for P7S thats pretty similar to ELMO that uses both tank Invuls, PLD cant do it and also take an invul during the beginning of the fight due to that 7m CD.


This will become less of an issue as gear power creep continues, and good players will be able to bypass all of this no problem. But from week 1 with PF clears. My experience has been that PLD really isn't optimal offensively or defensively.
A lot of the unique defensive tools that PLD have honestly have too many strings attached to be useful, to the point where DRK's incredibly simple defensive utility of being flat mitigation low cool down (Oblation/Dark Mind) seem more fitted for raiding than PLD.

[Ayche]

Well if you guys are seeing that huge aDPS differences, I'll concede that point. aDPS per run has so many conditional factors to it that who knows what was a good run and what was a better run from statistical analysis pov.

[Rilifane]

Well if you guys are seeing that huge aDPS differences, I'll concede that point. aDPS per run has so many conditional factors to it that who knows what was a good run and what was a better run from statistical analysis pov.

It's mainly decided by the class you play.
Tanks don't offer any buffs so what they lack in aDPS can't be made up through rDPS provided by buffing others like, e.g. a DNC does. So it all comes down to how much potency someone can dump during raid buffs of others - and GNB and DRK have a strong burst while WAR and PLD don't reach these levels. DRK has such a stupidly high opener burst that they're your preferred melee card target during it.
aDPS is the best metric for tanks because it's the only role that completely lacks raid buffs as a whole compared to every other (sub)role. It's more complicated if some have buffs and some don't but with all tanks literally being limited to just smashing their buttons, it's the most accurate and meaningful metric.

[esra01]

Heres my take on this from a DRK main, I've barely played Paladin, I do not like playing the job, but I have nothing against those who do.

Here's my take as a PLD main on defensive utility issues that a lot of player complains about.

Based on data, it's pretty obvious PLD always take more damage than any other tanks due to lack of self mitigation. But something that most PLD players ignore is the usage of intervention which is one of the most busted mitigation tool that rarely ever used by a lot of PLD players ( Intervention gives 20% + 10% mitigation with 250x4 potency regen ). If you give Intervention to your Co-tank on every tankbuster you would be surprised by how much less damage he is going to take over the course of the fight.

Looking at the damage taken that my co-tank and myself took during P7S. My co-tank (GNB) took 1.5M damage, while I took 2.1M damage for a total of 3.6M damage. Looking at this it seems like me as a PLD took 30% more damage than I should have. But after comparing it to other clear run of DRK and GNB pair, where the DRK took 2M damage, and the GNB took 1.9M damage for 3.9M damage total.
When you are raiding it will felt like the PLD is taking so much more damage than the other tank, but a PLD that kept giving Intervention to the co-tank makes the DoT so much more bearable for the other one so much so that my GNB co-tank requires almost no oGCD healing from my healers and so they just need to focus on giving me their oGCD. While I don't really have much to say for other tank pairing but from seeing my AST friend POV on her healing a DRK and GNB pairing, both of them requires healing on every tankbuster.

To emphasize how busted a single Intervention is. An unmitigated P7S tankbuster DoT is 33k x 5 (165k ), if you give a Intervention on it then you would be reducing the damage to 25k x 5 ( 125k ). A 40k damage reduction on your co-tank on every single tankbuster. If done on every single tankbuster on P7S then you are going to reduce the DoT damage on your co-tank is taking by 240k.

But in the end I still switched to DRK because of p8s DPS check

[Argyle_Darkheart]

It's DPS difference.

It makes sense to bar WAR/PLD from P8S's brutal DPS check to improve one's frankly abysmal odds of clearing with randoms in PF, but not from anything else.

That said, there's not much reason to favor PLD's toolkit over the tanks', which isn't as true for WAR. WAR also isn't as disadvantaged when it comes to DPS as PLD is, though it's still notably weaker than DRK or GNB.

[Oizen]

Here's my take as a PLD main on defensive utility issues that a lot of player complains about.

Based on data, it's pretty obvious PLD always take more damage than any other tanks due to lack of self mitigation. But something that most PLD players ignore is the usage of intervention which is one of the most busted mitigation tool that rarely ever used by a lot of PLD players ( Intervention gives 20% + 10% mitigation with 250x4 potency regen ). If you give Intervention to your Co-tank on every tankbuster you would be surprised by how much less damage he is going to take over the course of the fight.

Looking at the damage taken that my co-tank and myself took during P7S. My co-tank (GNB) took 1.5M damage, while I took 2.1M damage for a total of 3.6M damage. Looking at this it seems like me as a PLD took 30% more damage than I should have. But after comparing it to other clear run of DRK and GNB pair, where the DRK took 2M damage, and the GNB took 1.9M damage for 3.9M damage total.
When you are raiding it will felt like the PLD is taking so much more damage than the other tank, but a PLD that kept giving Intervention to the co-tank makes the DoT so much more bearable for the other one so much so that my GNB co-tank requires almost no oGCD healing from my healers and so they just need to focus on giving me their oGCD. While I don't really have much to say for other tank pairing but from seeing my AST friend POV on her healing a DRK and GNB pairing, both of them requires healing on every tankbuster.

To emphasize how busted a single Intervention is. An unmitigated P7S tankbuster DoT is 33k x 5 (165k ), if you give a Intervention on it then you would be reducing the damage to 25k x 5 ( 125k ). A 40k damage reduction on your co-tank on every single tankbuster. If done on every single tankbuster on P7S then you are going to reduce the DoT damage on your co-tank is taking by 240k.

But in the end I still switched to DRK because of p8s DPS check

So then its more of a lot of PLD players dont know how to play the job, I'm not surprised it defiantely looks difficult.

[Absimiliard]

Even making correct use of all of PLD's tools does not make up for how lackluster they are at the moment. Damage has long been the deciding factor for just about everything in this game, and it's not going to change. Personal mitigation is a secondary concern, and it falls flat there as well. It even falls flat in terms of most of its utilitarian uses.

[Absurdity]

So then its more of a lot of PLD players dont know how to play the job, I'm not surprised it defiantely looks difficult.

The same applies to pretty much every other tank that forgets they can use their short duration mitigation on someone else. Granted paladin is the only one that can put Intervention on someone else and then use Shelltron for themselves.

[Sazuzaki]

Even making correct use of all of PLD's tools does not make up for how lackluster they are at the moment. Damage has long been the deciding factor for just about everything in this game, and it's not going to change. Personal mitigation is a secondary concern, and it falls flat there as well. It even falls flat in terms of most of its utilitarian uses.

Everyone thought the poster boy curse was gone... Oh how wrong they were.