1 week savage delay and everything that plays into it

[Raven2014]

I have a couple questions for you:

- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?
- If week one prog is enough to break a static, I think that say more about the static rather than the fight. I once was part of a hardcore static that was aiming for week 1 or 2 clear, and let's say it was toxic enough that I told myself never again.

This sound more like a constructed issue born from ego rather than an organic one.

but if even we are barely able to clear the dps check, week 2/3/4 raiders are not motivated but disencouraged.

No, not really. Personally I clear 1-3 in the first 2 weeks, with the last floor in the 3rd or 4th week and we're perfectly happy with that. Generally that's the pace my static goes at well. We're all solid players, in fact most of the member have 1 to 3 ultimate under their belt. But, regardless the skill, we simply can't invest enough time for week 1 clear. Not all players (in fact, I dare say this apply to more players than not) cant afford to take day off from work, drop everything for one week, or even play every day of the week. (My static goes for 3h/day for 3days a week, and we can't afford a single hour more).

If you and your static can, more power to you, but please don't ask stuff to be balance around you and yours when like I said, you're an extremely tiny part of the community. A very showy part maybe, but tiny regardless. Given I already see people already attempting to prog and clear the last floor in Party Finder of all places, I think the difficulty is on point.

[Iyrnthota]

I have a couple questions for you:

- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?

On that note I'd ask, who else would you balance the fight around?
This is meant to be the hardest regular content in the game, so it makes sense to me that it is balanced around the hardcore week 1 proggers.

I guess I'm just struggling to come up with a possible alternative that you would propose.

[INymphI]

...
- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?
- If week one prog is enough to break a static, I think that say more about the static rather than the fight. I once was part of a hardcore static that was aiming for week 1 or 2 clear, and let's say it was toxic enough that I told myself never again.
...

- I don't say everything has to be balanced around week 1 raiders. I say the dps check of the p8s doorboss should be something that a broader range of week 1 attempts should be possible instead of making it disencouringly tight
- It did not break our static, we have had a lot of fun together. there was no toxicity between us. we were just mad at the dps check, that was almost impossible, even though we played cleanly

yeah, party finder is another good point: just create a group "only join when you got the tomestone weapon" which is possible for party finder making the dps check very easy in week 1, but not within our static since our loot is limited.

If you and your static can, more power to you, but please don't ask stuff to be balance around you and yours when like I said, you're an extremely tiny part of the community.

so you are saying that statics like ours should continued to be dps check walled in week 1 relying on crit lucks? I understand that it does not bother you since you are not affected by that change and have enough gear once you reach p8s, but why do you not want us to enjoy week 1 even more?

[Raven2014]

so you are saying that statics like ours should continued to be dps check walled in week 1 relying on crit lucks? I understand that it does not bother you since you are not affected by that change and have enough gear once you reach p8s,

To put it bluntly, yes. You're setting up an artificial wall for yourself by setting up that 1 week thing.

And to point it out, you can get around that wall by changing your team comp. I don't believe fights should be balance and meant to be clear on week 1. But of course I don't say to make it impossible. It simple means if you want to do it, you have to go the extra mile. Either putting more hour than what can normally expected of a average gamer, or be flexible team with your team comp, or have a degree of skill beyond the content designers, or all the above. The wall is not impassable, you're just annoyed because you don't willing to do all it takes to climb it.

And you never need to climb it in the first place. People don't climb Everest and complain it too hard, do they?

but why do you not want us to enjoy week 1 even more?

I thought I made it very obvious of the why. Your enjoyment comes at the cost of other enjoyment and the "you" here is an extremely small groups comparing to a much larger majority. (Unless of course you want to claim the majority of people are first week clearers?). And I would like to point out, my main problem with your OP isn't really about your own claim, but your superflious claim you made on behalf of people who are probably on the exact opposite of your spectrum. I had quoted it in my first post, but I will quote it here again to remind you:

-> you may say "well, play better, deal more dps as your class". yup, we have room for improvement. we are not world racers. we are a solid static clearing savages week 1 for multiple years. but if even we are barely able to clear the dps check, week 2/3/4 raiders are not motivated but disencouraged.

And I will tell you this, speak for yourself, because that's certainly NOT true. The week 2/3/4 people would appreciate the fact the fight still remain a good challenge by the time we get there. I don't want it to be balance around first week clear and in turn become a trivial affair in the latter weeks.

Raiding in just about ANY MMO has always meant to be a progression system over time. The early clears while expected, should never be the standard. And if it's not the standard, it should not be what to be balanced around.

[INymphI]

I don't believe fights should be balance and meant to be clear on week 1.

okay, in which week then? if we say week 2, what are the reasons to enter any content week 1 if they are not possible to clear?

The week 2/3/4 people would appreciate the fact the fight still remain a good challenge by the time we get there.

if you read other posts in this thread instead of your own you would see that there are indeed people disencouraged by the tight dps check in week 1, having fear not able to clear it on week 2/3/4.


I think you have got something fundamentally wrong: by reducing the dps check (week 1) from impossible to hard, it would not change to an easy experience for week 2/3/4.
all I say is: if a group plays all mechanics deathless, without any dmgdown and any standard-comp pressing their buttons they should be "rewarded" with a clear, even in week 1. for now the same rule applies to week 2/3/4: even if they play everything perfect they still might not be able to clear the dps check.

if that is fun to you, okay, but do not tell me I am selflishly speaking for a whole group while you do the same for the opposite group.

[INymphI]

And I would like to point out, my main problem with your OP isn't really about your own claim, but your superflious claim you made on behalf of people who are probably on the exact opposite of your spectrum.

And I will tell you this, speak for yourself, because that's certainly NOT true. The week 2/3/4 people would appreciate the fact the fight still remain a good challenge by the time we get there.

calling me out for my superflious claim on behalf of people and doing the same on your own 2 sentences later
*mic drop* bye
haha :-D

[Raven2014]

if we say week 2, what are the reasons to enter any content week 1 if they are not possible to clear?

But it is though? You just have to do what it takes.

if you read other posts in this thread instead of your own you would see that there are indeed people disencouraged by the tight dps check in week 1, having fear not able to clear it on week 2/3/4.

I never said there is none other than "you". But my point stand unless you believe there are more week 1 clearers than any other week, in that case I'm sorry but the statistic and math is not on your side.

I think you have got something fundamentally wrong: by reducing the dps check (week 1) from impossible to hard, it would not change to an easy experience for week 2/3/4.
all I say is: if a group plays all mechanics deathless, without any dmgdown and any standard-comp pressing their buttons they should be "rewarded" with a clear, even in week 1.

There are things called common sense and logic, that's not possible to bent no matter how you want to play the word (what the word "fundamentally" doing here except being a big word and trying to be impressive?). With all else holding constant - which they are (unless the fight scale with gear level), the only variable is the ilvl, and higher ilvl as the week progress = easier fight. Try to argue against that logic is like trying to argue the Earth is flat, good luck with that.

calling me out for my superflious claim on behalf of people and doing the same on your own 2 sentences later
*mic drop* bye
haha :-D

There is nothing superflious about my claim, because I'm making on the side of people who does not clear week 1, which is the portion of players I am a part of. You were making the superflious claim because you were making it on behalf of the group you do not represent. As a week 1 clearer you are advocating your own benefit by making claim it will not affect people who do week 2/3/4. It's like hearing a CEO trying to explain why his need of bigger bonus will not affect working condition/compensation of his worker ... Do you need further explanation why your claim is superflious?



And don't forget to pick up the mic you drop. If you're more interest in theatrics posting, I can assure you I'm not interested in watching.

[ForteNightshade]

when our static finally reached the enrage of p8s doorboss, we were hitting very VERY hard at a wall. the dps check is insane, even WITH a tomestone weapon. we had multiple clean (no death, no dmgdown) runs and still failed to manage the dps check.

Let me guess. You were running a comp that didn't include at least two of GNB, DRK, BLM, DNC, yes? The issue with the DPS check isn't its severity but the horrendous job balance. GNB and DRK are dealing upwards of 500+ high damage than WAR and PLD despite having comparable mitigation. Both SMN and RDM have been reduced to prange levels while BLM is pumping out low end melee damage. Verraise/Resurrection simply can't compensate with that massive a damage difference, especially when the DPS check all but requires zero deaths. Even amongst the melee themselves, RPR is hilariously outclassed. At the very top end, it's being outdamaged by BRD of all jobs. In fact, a comp consisting of WAR/PLD/RDM/MCH has a 0.5-1% level of damage variance where they can clear. This assumes nearly perfect play from the entire group and you crit enough to overcome the disadvantage. Meanwhile, swapping in DRK and GNB allows the group to clear with two damage downs. That's how ridiculous job balance is right now.

The DPS check isn't the issue here. The devs simply didn't test overall job balance whatsoever.

I have a couple questions for you:

- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?

Who else do you cater it towards? Every other piece of content can be cleared through sheer brute force. There is literally nothing except Savage that pushes the jobs to their limits. You don't balance jobs around the low end because that makes content roll over to any experienced player. In fact, balancing jobs around the high end (but not the very top) benefits everyone. Otherwise, you will start to see jobs being locked out.

Speaking of, since you mention Party finder. They aren't clearing P8S week 1. Even the second week will be a considerable longshot due to the aforementioned job balance. Several jobs right now are simply too disadvantaged to allow for the inconsistencies you'll experience in PF. Warrior offers literally nothing in P8S that Gunbreaker doesn't do better. Meanwhile, the latter brings 500 additional damage with similar defensives. So...

To put it bluntly, yes. You're setting up an artificial wall for yourself by setting up that 1 week thing.

And to point it out, you can get around that wall by changing your team comp. I don't believe fights should be balance and meant to be clear on week 1. But of course I don't say to make it impossible. It simple means if you want to do it, you have to go the extra mile. Either putting more hour than what can normally expected of a average gamer, or be flexible team with your team comp, or have a degree of skill beyond the content designers, or all the above. The wall is not impassable, you're just annoyed because you don't willing to do all it takes to climb it.

And you never need to climb it in the first place. People don't climb Everest and complain it too hard, do they?

Explain to me how buffing Warrior and Paladin by 300 damage would make any difference except to allow people to play on their preferred job? Yoshida has repeatedly said every job and comp are viable for all levels of content. This has been the design philosophy since its inception. So much, in fact, they purposefully broke the old Stormblood meta of DRG/NIN/BRD specifically due to its overwhelming dominance. Right now, certain comps need to perform significantly higher than others for no justifiable reason. A perfect Warrior simply can't match an above average Gunbreaker no matter what they do. Speaking as someone who cleared the doorboss week one. I performed worse on DRK yet we were able to push through the DPS check despite my Warrior performance being at the 90%+ threshold.

How is that good design?

[INymphI]

Let me guess. You were running a comp that didn't include at least two of GNB, DRK, BLM, DNC, yes?

Tanks:
DRK WAR
Heals:
SCH WHM
DDs:
SMN DNC MNK DRG

our WAR switched to GNB after enrage. then it got (barely) manageable

[ForteNightshade]

Tanks:
DRK WAR
Heals:
SCH WHM
DDs:
SMN DNC MNK DRG

our WAR switched to GNB after enrage. then it got (barely) manageable

Want to know the sad thing? If your SMN could play BLM at a comparable level, you'd clear the doorboss with a support death. That's how enormous the difference is comp is right now.

Like I said, I also switched to DRK and suddenly we were able to push through despite not even having a tome weapon. We just happened to be running DRK/GNB/BLM. It's absurd the difference right now.