Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Alleo]

Didn't read that as I found the prose unreadable and I would trust anyone from Venats death cult anyway we know Venat lied to them so I don't consider them reliable at all.

Then trust in Emet who bascially admits to the Scions that even if every planet is rejoined (no idea what they will do about the void) and the people on the source are whole again (thus reaching people status in his eyes) they planned on sacrificing those to Zodiark to get their Amaurotine friends back. It was always just about those. They never cared if the sacrifice at the end would include reborn Ancient souls.

[thegreatonemal]

No we are told what happened, Omega kills Bahamut, the ascians come to the dragons in the grief and convince them they can bring noble Bahamut back and they get a monster instead. The ascians also gave the allagans the means to capture Bahamut which they do allowing him to be used in Dalmund. The Ascians played both sides to perfection they didn't care who one, I don't get where you are getting the Ascians where fighting the Mycidians from

Omega captures primal Bahamut and the triad, not kills the original. The original dies in a war of attrition with voidsent.

[jameseoakes]

Omega captures primal Bahamut and the triad, not kills the original. The original dies in a war of attrition with voidsent.

I'm pretty sure it was somewhere that Omega mistakes Bahamut for Midgarrzoma and kills him.

[jameseoakes]

Then trust in Emet who bascially admits to the Scions that even if every planet is rejoined (no idea what they will do about the void) and the people on the source are whole again (thus reaching people status in his eyes) they planned on sacrificing those to Zodiark to get their Amaurotine friends back. It was always just about those. They never cared if the sacrifice at the end would include reborn Ancient souls.

They're two different events, yes the ascians plan was to sacrifice the peoples of the rejoined world but the Amarotines were not planning to do that just funnel aether from the rekindled plant and animal life to him

[WellGramarye]

Snip

Nothing in the lore shows this to be true with how time travel is handled. The lore shows two types of time travel. Branching alternate time lines, based on large decisions that change the future, and small self contained loops that do not change the future significantly.

Shadowbringers was the former and EW and Alex the latter. There is NO evidence that events in an alternate branch timeline affect the other branches without some kind of time travel device (Alexander, The Tycoon.)

Gra'ha changes his future by stopping the 8UE, so he can no longer return to that timeline even though it still exists. Elidibus' warning is that if we try to change the timeline by stopping the End of Days in the past, because we and everything we're fighting for exists because of the Sundering, will not exist when we return, thus creating another branch. This is the whole reason for the closed loop paradox and the convergence with Venat/Hydaelyn.

We are currently on a branch timeline, but the game, by factor of we're the main character, is shown from OUR POV.

Timeline 1

Ancient world -> Meteia -> Zodiark -> Sundering -> ARR -> Crystal Tower Raids -> HW -> SB -> B -> We Die -> 8UC -> Tycoon Created -> Time Travel -> A ->Midgarsormr Sidestory

Graha leaves at A ends up at B.

Timeline 2

Ancient world -> Meteia ->B -> Zodiark -> Sundering -> ARR -> Crystal Tower Raids -> HW -> SB -> Graha ends up on First -> SB -> EW -> A -> Current Patch

We leave at A end up at B, but return to A.


In Timeline 1, we do not EXIST to be able to go back in time. Without Graha, going back in time we can NEVER go back to Elpis. Our actions in Elpis are irrelevant to the timeline from the Ancient World up to EW, because things happening in Elpis would have happened anyway. The Metia, the summoning of Zodiark, and the Sundering, all happen whether we show up there or not. Elidibus all but straight up says this in his line about not meddling.

So what changes with us going back? The knowledge that Venat has, but refuses to act upon, and the knowledge we gain and DO act upon.

[KariTheFox]

They're two different events, yes the ascians plan was to sacrifice the peoples of the rejoined world but the Amarotines were not planning to do that just funnel aether from the rekindled plant and animal life to him

If throwing a bunch of animals into the Zodariak wood-chipper would bring back the ancients trapped in him 12,000 years ago, why not just try to do that again after the rejoinings? Why with the planned human sacrifice of people who absolutely will not want to be sacrificed and risk further conflict? Why not just tell the nations of the newly unsudered world "okay, supply us with an incredible amount of livestock to sacrifice and we'll reward you with our amazing magic and knowledge".

Are Emet-Selch and other Ascians very stupid and shortsighted? Are they motivated by petty feelings of revenge against the sundered? That'd be odd, since the ancients were supposed to be better than that.

Or, is it just the case that human sacrifice (or at least the sacrifice of ensouled life) was always a necessary component of trading for the lives of the ancients trapped in Zodiark?

[jameseoakes]

If throwing a bunch of animals into the Zodariak wood-chipper would bring back the ancients trapped in him 12,000 years ago, why not just try to do that again after the rejoinings? Why with the planned human sacrifice of people who absolutely will not want to be sacrificed and risk further conflict? Why not just tell the nations of the newly unsudered world "okay, supply us with an incredible amount of livestock to sacrifice and we'll reward you with our amazing magic and knowledge".

Are Emet-Selch and other Ascians very stupid and shortsighted? Are they motivated by petty feelings of revenge against the sundered? That'd be odd, since the ancients were supposed to be better than that.

Or, is it just the case that human sacrifice (or at least the sacrifice of ensouled life) was always a necessary component of trading for the lives of the ancients trapped in Zodiark?

They're different plans made in different circumstances. There were no people to sacrifice and there's no point sacrificing ancients to zodiark as it defeats the whole point so this as an idea just makes no sense. If I had to assume the the sacrifice plan we see planned in the event of the rejoinings either being on born out of haste or the need for a big use of aether to fix the damage caused by the sundering and this plan was monstrous which was why Emet was a satisfying villain

[KariTheFox]

They're different plans made in different circumstances. There were no people to sacrifice and there's no point sacrificing ancients to zodiark as it defeats the whole point so this as an idea just makes no sense. If I had to assume the the sacrifice plan we see planned in the event of the rejoinings either being on born out of haste or the need for a big use of aether to fix the damage caused by the sundering and this plan was monstrous which was why Emet was a satisfying villain

So, if there were people around for the third sacrifice, the ancients would have used them? Why?

There would still be animals around after the rejoinings, why the need to use human sacrifice? Why would there be a sense of haste or urgency, after 12,000 years, surely a couple months or a year to breed a bunch of livestock would be better than attempting a sacrifical genocide against a bunch of newly unsundered people who are going to fight you as hard as they can.

The thing that makes Emet-Selch compelling is that he is a tragic figure who feels obliged to commit atrocities for the sake of his people that he feels responsible for, as soon as you posit that actually, building a big livestock woodchipper would be an acceptable alternative to human sacrifice, it kind of makes him seem like a lazy clown of a man instead.

[Cilia]

If throwing a bunch of animals into the Zodariak wood-chipper would bring back the ancients trapped in him 12,000 years ago, why not just try to do that again after the rejoinings? ... Or, is it just the case that human sacrifice (or at least the sacrifice of ensouled life) was always a necessary component of trading for the lives of the ancients trapped in Zodiark?

The issue here is that sundered beings are, at least some of them, reincarnations of those very same Ancients the Ascians wanted to bring back. Don't need to spoiler tag it here, but the PC is a sundered reincarnation of Azem; in order to get the Ancient "Azem" back, the PC would have to be killed and their soul returned to an Ancient's body. Then of course there's the matter of people whose souls aren't reincarnations of Ancients... if the working theory of the cycle of souls has any weight to it, they'd all need to be killed and their souls filtered back into the aether of an Ancient's soul; whatever's left can go back to the Lifestream to be used in the Aether Farm plan.

The sacrifice of ensouled life was always part of the plan. What form that life took is open to interpretation, but various sources have made it rather clear that new souls were going to be "plugged in to" Zodiark in order to get the Ancients' out. Unfortunately you can just go "Lol so you value cows' lives more than people's?" when arguing this point to ridicule and shut down the opposition, even though the metaphysics of XIV make it rather a bit more complex than that.

[jameseoakes]

The issue here is that sundered beings are, at least some of them, reincarnations of those very same Ancients the Ascians wanted to bring back. Don't need to spoiler tag it here, but the PC is a sundered reincarnation of Azem; in order to get the Ancient "Azem" back, the PC would have to be killed and their soul returned to an Ancient's body. Then of course there's the matter of people whose souls aren't reincarnations of Ancients... if the working theory of the cycle of souls has any weight to it, they'd all need to be killed and their souls filtered back into the aether of an Ancient's soul; whatever's left can go back to the Lifestream to be used in the Aether Farm plan.

The sacrifice of ensouled life was always part of the plan. What form that life took is open to interpretation, but various sources have made it rather clear that new souls were going to be "plugged in to" Zodiark in order to get the Ancients' out. Unfortunately you can just go "Lol so you value cows' lives more than people's?" when arguing this point to ridicule and shut down the opposition, even though the metaphysics of XIV make it rather a bit more complex than that.

Thanks for the better explanation than I could manage