4-man variants for endgame content going forward?

[Merrigan]

I must say I'm not a fan of the idea.

Having content for groups of 4 is great news, and I welcome it for the same reasons as you. But I do appreciate that the endgame content is well categorized; and in my opinion, it's normal to have instances that are only accessible to certain people. Here, those who make the effort to set up and participate in fixed roosters, which requires a certain investment.

And it is out of respect for this investment, which people like you and me are not ready to make (< absolutely not a problem, just an observation) that we should keep these instances reserved for groups of 8.

The other concern I see with the idea is that one of the main difficulties of savages is coordination. Many groups don't get clean not because the individual player doesn't know the mechanics, but because the group doesn't work together. And this "coordination" aspect is strongly lost in groups of 4, since it is a priori easier to function with 3 other players than with 7 others. Minimizing the importance of coordination in high-level instances would be the equivalent of denaturing them in my opinion.

[Wind-Krysvein]

I must say I'm not a fan of the idea.

*snip*

I can definitely see your point about working together and communicating as a team. However...

I honestly can't agree with the other point you make. No offense meant by this, but to me it just sounds like you'd want to monopolize certain types of content solely for certain types of people. I can't agree with that sentiment at all, and while I hope to never in my life use the term "ableist" to advance an argument, I do think it would be absolutely fair (and not to forget financially smart) to allow smaller groups to tackle endgame raiding content as well.

All opinions are welcome though. Just responding to yours with my own

[NekoMataMata]

I can definitely see your point about working together and communicating as a team. However...

I honestly can't agree with the other point you make. No offense meant by this, but to me it just sounds like you'd want to monopolize certain types of content solely for certain types of people. I can't agree with that sentiment at all, and while I hope to never in my life use the term "ableist" to advance an argument, I do think it would be absolutely fair (and not to forget financially smart) to allow smaller groups to tackle endgame raiding content as well.

All opinions are welcome though. Just responding to yours with my own

I'm glad someone else noticed this.

I can respect the idea and opinion that 4 man content won't be as difficult as 8 man content due to the fact that there's less people to coordinate with(tanks/healers for instance won't have to coordinate with a double at all). The other part of what that person is saying though is literally gatekeeping.

For reference:

I must say I'm not a fan of the idea.

Having content for groups of 4 is great news, and I welcome it for the same reasons as you. But I do appreciate that the endgame content is well categorized; and in my opinion, it's normal to have instances that are only accessible to certain people. Here, those who make the effort to set up and participate in fixed roosters, which requires a certain investment.

And it is out of respect for this investment, which people like you and me are not ready to make (< absolutely not a problem, just an observation) that we should keep these instances reserved for groups of 8.

Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I'm glad someone else noticed this.

I can respect the idea and opinion that 4 man content won't be as difficult as 8 man content due to the fact that there's less people to coordinate with(tanks/healers for instance won't have to coordinate with a double at all). The other part of what that person is saying though is literally gatekeeping.

For reference:


Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

It's not gatekeeping. Complexity of fights inherintly drops the less people there are to do mechanics/meet dps checks.

[NekoMataMata]

It's not gatekeeping. Complexity of fights inherintly drops the less people there are to do mechanics/meet dps checks.

You have 6,000 post count, have been playing since 2011 and you have no idea how to read. You have my sympathies :/


I already acknowledged that portion of what that person said. What you failed to notice is that they also made it clear that they felt that unless you were willing to commit to becoming a part of a roster and essentially spending excess time with that roster for the purpose of completing harder content then you have no business playing said content.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

You have 6,000 post count, have been playing since 2011 and you have no idea how to read. You have my sympathies :/


I already acknowledged that portion of what that person said. What you failed to notice is that they also made it clear that they felt that unless you were willing to commit to becoming a part of a roster and essentially spending excess time with that roster for the purpose of completing harder content then you have no business playing said content.

IDK why they were talking about respect, I was simply commenting on the other aspect of it. You wouldnt get the same rewards, nor should you, in a 4 man version of an EX or savage fight, because it would inherently be easier. With that being the case, the amount of dev time required to make it work for no real reward makes it kind of pointless. And PF exists for people who cant commit to specifc times.

[Merrigan]

I'm glad someone else noticed this.

I can respect the idea and opinion that 4 man content won't be as difficult as 8 man content due to the fact that there's less people to coordinate with(tanks/healers for instance won't have to coordinate with a double at all). The other part of what that person is saying though is literally gatekeeping.

For reference:


Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

I (honestly) don't understand people's reluctance about not making everything accessible. It's been several times that my interventions on this subject make people react; and without pretending to be right on all levels (fortunately!), I generally don't understand the counter-arguments on this precise point.

All considerations about the game itself aside (which is hard to do, because it's simply inseparable), it seems normal to me that a person investing more in a game... well, has more things at his disposal. The effort invested is greater, so the reward should be as well. Maybe the disagreement comes from the fact that I tend to see the combat itself as a reward, rather than the loot at the end?

The only exception I would tend to make, here, would be the story; and there I agree with both of you completely. This is a type of content that should be accessible to all.

[Reinha]

Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

8 man content is not gatekept behind having a fixed group like PotD and HoH are, for example. We are perfectly capable of making a PF group for any raid. Completing it is another matter.

[Kes13a]

I can definitely see your point about working together and communicating as a team. However...

I honestly can't agree with the other point you make. No offense meant by this, but to me it just sounds like you'd want to monopolize certain types of content solely for certain types of people. I can't agree with that sentiment at all, and while I hope to never in my life use the term "ableist" to advance an argument, I do think it would be absolutely fair (and not to forget financially smart) to allow smaller groups to tackle endgame raiding content as well.

All opinions are welcome though. Just responding to yours with my own

by the same token, arent you wanting to monopolize the content for groups of 4 who dont want to work with larger groups or even randoms? or even the latest push towards basically a solo experience is monopolizing the content for those that dont wish to group at all.