The WOL and Mass Murder

[Cleretic]

I used to believe that too but then I gave it a bit more thought.

The real issue wasn't not that the civilizations grow nihilistic and suicidal overtime.
The real issue was that they grow powerful enough to see their nihilism through.

At worst, a nihilistic cavemen is just going to run around, bonk other random cavemen and then get himself bonked to death. The life in the universe wont die and the rest will move on and find happiness in life.
At worst, a nihilistic ancient is going to create a universe destroying bird loli and then just runs off back to his corner to keep brooding. the life in the universe will die and the rest will not move on and find oblivion in death.

If Venat had enough smarts to present the issue as ancients being suicidal nihilists who were too powerful for their own good then she wouldn't had to hide the truth from everyone.

I largely agree with you, and actually never thought about it that way; we're knee-deep in a raid story of seeing what Ancients handling things poorly looks like, and yeeeeeeeah, maybe do your best to avoid giving a whole society the impetus to do that.

But mostly I'm replying to point out the black magic you have probably-accidentally stumbled on to make your avatar have a purple background, and I just want to applaud you for discovering what's definitely gonna be the new OF fashion trend. I checked how that happened by the way for anyone curious:

That's the Abyssos fending chestpiece's ring effect; it goes red on the edges, which blends with the usual blue.

[EaraGrace]

I largely agree with you, and actually never thought about it that way; we're knee-deep in a raid story of seeing what Ancients handling things poorly looks like, and yeeeeeeeah, maybe do your best to avoid giving a whole society the impetus to do that.

It’s what makes Elidibus’ comment about the Ancients crying out in “rage and despair” so important in hindsight, imagine a whole world going through that for the first time.

[SentioftheHoukai]

It’s what makes Elidibus’ comment about the Ancients crying out in “rage and despair” so important in hindsight, imagine a whole world going through that for the first time.

The difference is that for some, its something to hate and want to see them destroyed "for their own good". For others, it's something to sympathize with and pity and would see such vulnerable souls protected. Once again, as an autist the general community's reaction to shit like this is baffling. It's like how my kind was treated in the Puritan age of early America. Treated as possessed children, to be burned alive or some such. If you see something like this and see people that gotta die for the good of all, I think maybe YOU are the tyrant who supports dictatorial regimes. I just don't get how such massive amounts of death is treated as a good thing.

[Cleretic]

It’s what makes Elidibus’ comment about the Ancients crying out in “rage and despair” so important in hindsight, imagine a whole world going through that for the first time.

Especially because, as we learned from a brief blip in the first Tales from the Dawn story, it's possible for someone to have a completely rogue creation that needs to be put down. In that case, a child's.

So not only do you have to worry about someone consciously deciding 'nothing matters and everything is meaningless so let's just start killing things', you also have to worry about the probably much more likely scenario of someone's emotional turmoil about the end of the goddamn world causing their creations to go dangerously haywire.

It's not just 'this information will make people who aren't ready for it sad and irrational', it's 'this information will make people who aren't ready for it ticking time bombs of emotional turmoil that even they can't control'. You don't just have to worry about Fandaniel hearing the facts and getting too dour to help, it's that you have to worry about someone who hears it and feels strongly enough to create an exploding bird that'll beeline straight through his office window, possibly without even meaning to.

[sidurgu-12]

Especially because, as we learned from a brief blip in the first Tales from the Dawn story, it's possible for someone to have a completely rogue creation that needs to be put down. In that case, a child's.

So not only do you have to worry about someone consciously deciding 'nothing matters and everything is meaningless so let's just start killing things', you also have to worry about the probably much more likely scenario of someone's emotional turmoil about the end of the goddamn world causing their creations to go dangerously haywire.

way off topic but all im imagining right now is azem taking a giant tower out back with a shotgun lol.

[sidurgu-12]

Especially because, as we learned from a brief blip in the first Tales from the Dawn story, it's possible for someone to have a completely rogue creation that needs to be put down. In that case, a child's.

So not only do you have to worry about someone consciously deciding 'nothing matters and everything is meaningless so let's just start killing things', you also have to worry about the probably much more likely scenario of someone's emotional turmoil about the end of the goddamn world causing their creations to go dangerously haywire.

It's not just 'this information will make people who aren't ready for it sad and irrational', it's 'this information will make people who aren't ready for it ticking time bombs of emotional turmoil that even they can't control'. You don't just have to worry about Fandaniel hearing the facts and getting too dour to help, it's that you have to worry about someone who hears it and feels strongly enough to create an exploding bird that'll beeline straight through his office window, possibly without even meaning to.

it just hit me but now their overly strict society makes sense. it seems like creation magic doesn't need a lot of training to use so anything could be accidently created so they place heavy restrictions on themselves and discourage any overt individuality resulting in the world we briefly saw.

edit i may have said this before and forgot so srry if i did.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Especially because, as we learned from a brief blip in the first Tales from the Dawn story, it's possible for someone to have a completely rogue creation that needs to be put down. In that case, a child's.

So not only do you have to worry about someone consciously deciding 'nothing matters and everything is meaningless so let's just start killing things', you also have to worry about the probably much more likely scenario of someone's emotional turmoil about the end of the goddamn world causing their creations to go dangerously haywire.

It's not just 'this information will make people who aren't ready for it sad and irrational', it's 'this information will make people who aren't ready for it ticking time bombs of emotional turmoil that even they can't control'. You don't just have to worry about Fandaniel hearing the facts and getting too dour to help, it's that you have to worry about someone who hears it and feels strongly enough to create an exploding bird that'll beeline straight through his office window, possibly without even meaning to.

We don't need people to possess magickal superpowers from anime or video games to have, and I quote "ticking time bombs of emotional turmoil" to fear, hate, wish to control and seek to destroy. Those things already exist, all around us in real, every-day life. And, they sow their seeds of destruction, chaos, and malice through the medium of knives, guns, and bombs.

I'm not entirely clear how these two peoples, these two situations are truly so magnificently different in the end. The specifics and outcome may change, but the methods through which we may usher the weak and vulnerable through it or even prevent it entirely are the same. If only some manner of understanding and care had been afforded those who came before, in contrast to the overwhelming amount those who came after receive. I daresay we, the Warrior of Light are disrespecting Louisoix's mantra as much as the promise we made to Emet-Selch. We do not remember, we erase and rewrite. We are indolent, for we only seek to save those we value as well as those our loved ones and friends value. We are failing as a Hero.

[Silverbane]

I daresay we, the Warrior of Light are disrespecting Louisoix's mantra ... We're failing as a Hero.

Louisoix's mantra was a crock.

You can only be a Hero by acting according to your own values.
You don't have to conform to some grey-bearded intellectual's conception of the role.
Consequently, most of the "villains" in FFXIV are Heros ... "from a certain point of view."
Which is how it should be in good fiction.

[Cleretic]

We don't need people to possess magickal superpowers from anime or video games to have, and I quote "ticking time bombs of emotional turmoil" to fear, hate, wish to control and seek to destroy. Those things already exist, all around us in real, every-day life. And, they sow their seeds of destruction, chaos, and malice through the medium of knives, guns, and bombs.

The thing is, you have to either get or make those things, and most societies on Earth at least try to make sure those aren't immediately easy to get, especially for someone who isn't in a great emotional state (to varying degrees of success). Well, except for knives, most households do have those, but you'll find knife attacks generally do much less damage than bombings or shootings. With them, you're more in Dzonathan's 'nihilistic caveman' hypothetical, there's not a huge potential scale.

The Ancients ALL, individually, have an unconfiscatable power to do enormous damage--power that, again, could conceivably become that dangerous without them even wanting to. In their world, it's not possible to stop someone in a dangerous emotional state from having access to the most dangerous thing they could possibly have, because all of them already have it, even a child could be dangerous.

We don't really have a great real-world comparison to that, but the best one is probably not access to firearms, and instead access to cars; we know full well that cars are extremely dangerous, but they're also something we assume everyone can and will eventually use because of the ability it provides. So we just do our best to make sure people do it safely... and are VERY bad at handling someone who uses it to hurt people, both in terms of preventing that happening and stopping it when it's ongoing. And now remember that creation magic is worse than that, because they don't require a license and a toddler can do it.

[SentioftheHoukai]

The thing is, you have to either get or make those things, and most societies on Earth at least try to make sure those aren't immediately easy to get, especially for someone who isn't in a great emotional state (to varying degrees of success). Well, except for knives, most households do have those, but you'll find knife attacks generally do much less damage than bombings or shootings. With them, you're more in Dzonathan's 'nihilistic caveman' hypothetical, there's not a huge potential scale.

The Ancients ALL, individually, have an unconfiscatable power to do enormous damage--power that, again, could conceivably become that dangerous without them even wanting to. In their world, it's not possible to stop someone in a dangerous emotional state from having access to the most dangerous thing they could possibly have, because all of them already have it, even a child could be dangerous.

We don't really have a great real-world comparison to that, but the best one is probably not access to firearms, and instead access to cars; we know full well that cars are extremely dangerous, but they're also something we assume everyone can and will eventually use because of the ability it provides. So we just do our best to make sure people do it safely... and are VERY bad at handling someone who uses it to hurt people, both in terms of preventing that happening and stopping it when it's ongoing. And now remember that creation magic is worse than that, because they don't require a license and a toddler can do it.

Fair enough. It yet fails to change the fact that the only proper way to prevent lasting damage to society no matter the medium is to provide those at risk with care and understanding, not scorn and a desire to see them gone even as we justify it to ourselves as for "the greater good." Nature vs. nurture and all that. Some souls on this planet are arguably irredeemable, but does that truly mean we shouldn't even try? Punishing people for pre-crime is about as immoral as you can get.

Louisoix's mantra was a crock.

You can only be a Hero by acting according to your own values.
You don't have to conform to some grey-bearded intellectual's conception of the role.
Consequently, most of the "villains" in FFXIV are Heros ... "from a certain point of view."
Which is how it should be in good fiction.

I don't know if I can get behind that rationale, myself. Emet-Selch may have been a hero to his people, but that doesn't exactly change his deeds does it? Every villain is the hero of his own story, he's still a villain though. Because we are the hero of this story. We play the character who is placed firmly in the protagonist's role, and many are our deeds of yore thus far. Emet-Selch's legacy is tarnished by his many crimes, he cannot be a hero for any excepting those who are dead.

Louisoix's mantra is one that we ourselves follow, as well as the Scions. They've become arc words for the entire franchise, with dialogue alluding to that effect in every expansion. Some of it options we ourselves can choose to utter, so I don't really believe it can be dismissed so casually.