Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Theodric]

I see this argument a lot, as if Venat's whole problem was 'but nobody would believe me'. That wasn't the problem, the problem was that she felt they couldn't handle the truth; that if Hermes knew he'd refuse to help with the necessary defenses (which Hermes himself agrees with), that if someone like Emet knew they'd tell him (which... you know, he would), and that a whole bunch of average citizens would react to that whole 'hey the apocalypse is coming' information poorly (which we know they do).

Ironically, Venat's problem is the exact reverse of struggling to get people to believe her: Venat is so positively regarded, and the Ancients so suited to checking the veracity of an assertion, that anyone she tells would immediately understand the truth and that the truth is terrifying. That game changes once the Convocation are tempered and won't listen even if they are approached (as the poster above me pointed out), but not in a way that makes things any better.

But if this is where this thread is going, I'm gonna go ahead and ollie out, because this mono-argument has been tedious for all but one of the months in which it's been held, and you haven't listened to these points the last seventeen times they were made either.

Thordan also believed the people of Ishgard could not handle the truth regarding the Dragonsong War yet he was ultimately proven wrong and the conflict - despite lasting a thousand years - drew to a close.

It isn't a controversial opinion to suggest that genocide is not an appropriate alternative to having difficult conversations. We even see with Garlemald that the people there, bitter enemies to those who ventured there to help out, are treated with dignity and respect and are not just wiped out even if it would have been the easiest solution and prevented further problems in the future.

What you seem to be asking for is for people to just shrug and accept genocide of innocent men, women and children as a necessity when viable alternatives existed. Though you're correct on one thing at least, this debate has certainly been had many times in the past and will no doubt continue well into the future. I do believe that numerous posters have provided sources to counter the points raised in favour of genocide being a necessity, though.

[thegreatonemal]

Thordan also believed the people of Ishgard could not handle the truth regarding the Dragonsong War yet he was ultimately proven wrong and the conflict - despite lasting a thousand years - drew to a close.

It isn't a controversial opinion to suggest that genocide is not an appropriate alternative to having difficult conversations. We even see with Garlemald that the people there, bitter enemies to those who ventured there to help out, are treated with dignity and respect and are not just wiped out even if it would have been the easiest solution and prevented further problems in the future.

What you seem to be asking for is for people to just shrug and accept genocide of innocent men, women and children as a necessity when viable alternatives existed. Though you're correct on one thing at least, this debate has certainly been had many times in the past and will no doubt continue well into the future. I do believe that numerous posters have provided sources to counter the points raised in favour of genocide being a necessity, though.

You left out that part where we killed him and the conflict between those who wanted to change and those who wanted to keep the status quo had a fight and one side won over the other.
It was a last resort, all other options had failed so they fought and the only way to defeat Zodiark was the sundering.

You and yours have yet to provide that. Just a bunch of speculation that really isn't supported by the story nor the characters and their motivations.

[tokinokanatae]

You left out that part where we killed him and the conflict between those who wanted to change and those who wanted to keep the status quo had a fight and one side won over the other.

There were a lot of Ishgardians that reacted badly to the truth about the Dragonsong War. People that had suffered loss, gone through unimaginable pain over a lie that those in power had perpetuated. Some of them even translated that grief into horrible action, like attempted assassination or deliberately disrupting peace talks.

Yet, curiously, at no point is the “solution” to these people’s outpouring of pain the murder of every man, woman, and child in Ishgard. The solution wasn’t even to murder the opposition. Funny, that.

EDIT: These conversations tend to be extremely circular, so let me provide you with a different thought experiment.

Let us say Aymeric and his friends (us included) wound up being a minority in the Dragonsong War aftermath. The majority of Ishgardians are unable to move past the collective psychic wounds immediately after the revelation, and they decide their course of action will be to summon Thordan as a primal. No arguing of the foolishness of this course of action can dissuade the people of Ishgard from this path.

Do you think the Warrior of Light would then kill every single Ishgardian? Would that be the solution the game would put forth for this situation—and would they have our character enact it?

[Brinne]

In this very expansion we had an entire zone dedicated to the story of a population struggling with the collapse of their worldview and several horrible truths. Efforts were extended to grant them empathy and assistance at every turn. Some of them, before our eyes, chose self-destruction and death out of despair - this is more direct evidence about a "bad reaction" than Venat ever had in regards to her conviction to bar information about the Final Days and the universe at large from the Ancients, but we didn't decide based on that the Garleans could never change and slaughter them all either.

[thegreatonemal]

In this very expansion we had an entire zone dedicated to the story of a population struggling with the collapse of their worldview and several horrible truths. Efforts were extended to grant them empathy and assistance at every turn. Some of them, before our eyes, chose self-destruction and death out of despair - this is more direct evidence about a "bad reaction" than Venat ever had in regards to her conviction to bar information about the Final Days and the universe at large from the Ancients, but we didn't decide based on that the Garleans could never change and slaughter them all either.

How their worldview collapsed is why they were extended that treatment that they got. Also the stakes are different. Had the Garleans refused to accept that their world was gone, only they would die or be wallowing in despair, not the entire universe.

[tokinokanatae]

Had the Garleans refused to accept that their world was gone, only they would die or be wallowing in despair, not the entire universe.

How were the Ancients to understand that their difficulty moving on was of importance to the broader universe again…?

[Brinne]

Had the Garleans refused to accept that their world was gone, only they would die or be wallowing in despair, not the entire universe.

I mean, one of the prongs of the exploration of some of their inability to move on involved insistence on continued military culture and action, even going so far as attacking the parties trying to provide direct assistance.

Which means we gotta Black Rose 'em all, obviously.

EDIT:

Just going to ignore her faction trying to convince the Convocation and being rebuked are you?

So, what did her faction tell the Convocation, exactly?

[Cilia]

You'd be amazed at how long one person can nurse a grudge. It's not even about the game or its story, at its core.

Yeah I know, GIFT, validation, echo chambers leading to viewpoints ever shifting to the extreme, etc.

How their worldview collapsed is why they were extended that treatment that they got. Also the stakes are different. Had the Garleans refused to accept that their world was gone, only they would die or be wallowing in despair, not the entire universe.

The Garleans got the treatment they did because the course of their lives, having already been filled with hardship before the Empire's collapse, let them grow the resilience necessary to endure that loss. Some of them, anyway (re: Quintus). The Ancients' lives had little to no hardship, so when shocked with the Final Days and the price paid to stop it, they were unable to swallow that price and demanded a refund and return to the old status quo.

The stakes are a tertiary issue, at best.

[tokinokanatae]

The Garleans got the treatment they did because the course of their lives, having already been filled with hardship before the Empire's collapse, let them grow the resilience necessary to endure that loss. Some of them, anyway (re: Quintus). The Ancients' lives had little to no hardship, so when shocked with the Final Days and the price paid to stop it, they were unable to swallow that price and demanded a refund and return to the old status quo.

The Garleans lived in one of the most technologically advanced, powerful nations of the currently known world for long enough that anyone that had experienced the hardships you speak of directly would have been a child at the time.

If we find out that the Ancients had had a billion years of struggle and strife before their current standard of living, would that suddenly make the Sundering unacceptable to you?

[thegreatonemal]

Yeah I know, GIFT, validation, echo chambers leading to viewpoints ever shifting to the extreme, etc.



The Garleans got the treatment they did because the course of their lives, having already been filled with hardship before the Empire's collapse, let them grow the resilience necessary to endure that loss. Some of them, anyway (re: Quintus). The Ancients' lives had little to no hardship, so when shocked with the Final Days and the price paid to stop it, they were unable to swallow that price and demanded a refund and return to the old status quo.

The stakes are a tertiary issue, at best.

I'd say its the primary reason, we were planning to simply have a standard conventional war had the towers not appeared. While thematically they are a nice comparison to the Ancients its not the reason we go there feeling sorry for them.