What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

Its not a hypothetical anything. Its what the game presents as even you recognize. I don't disagree that it isn't consistent with what would thematically be a characteristically accurate portrayal of what the Ancients would have done, or even with other presentations in the story of the motives and actions that ancients were taking, or even the control of Zodiark and enthralling the ancients, or even that Emet says they knew they were enthralled to a degree and still able to exert some form of control on themselves.the writing is the writing and there's no discussion that changes that.

Indeed, we agree the writing of Endwalker is either an awkward retcon at best, or incompetent at worst. It took a reasonable, if debatable action, then shamelessly strawmanned it because uuhhhh what is nuance. Though I would like to say Zodiark did not temper Ancients in general, just the Convocation. Who were indeed respected world leaders, though in the context of a society based on debating, it's arguable how much sway they would have had on the overall population if the decisions they were making were obviously deranged.

You'll have to explain what this has to do with Hydealyns reason for the sundering. Because regardless of the mechanics behind how the sundering occured, or what powered it, or what powered anything, it doesn't change the motive. And what 8 guys you are referencing, because insofar as the story is in Lore, the WoL faced Metion alone as the WoL faces everything story based alone, with the exclusion of dragon form zenos.

One of the reasons for the Sundering, beside condemning humanity to a never ending cycle of short mortal lives full of hunger, disease and conflicts motivated by self-preservation, was that making humans (and everything else, oops) less aetherically dense would enable them to directly interact with Dynamis. Which... has the unfortunate side effect of transforming people into ravenous monsters (which she totally knew about, we told her (and Hermes) as much), but it also gives the protagonists untold powers on the very plot because they have the Power Of Friendship, as well as the Power of God And Anime on their side. We know this was part of her reasoning, because it's what Y'shtola says, and Y'shtola is literally just the author's mouthpiece.

Dynamis is the general argument for why Ancients Simply Never Had Any Hope Against Meteion So Please Stop Arguing, because even in the hypothetical scenario where they would figure everything out about the Final Days, space travel and Hermes being a spiteful idiot, you can argue that they simply weren't built for Dynamis, physiologically, and thus could never actually fight Meteion. (Never mind, of course, that Meteion herself was literally made by an Ancient, meaning that even if Ancients themselves could not directly influence Dynamis, they could have made familiars that could, given enough information about the Final Days to motivate research into Dynamis.)

Hence, the prospect of Hydaelyn, a being as aetherically dense as one could imagine, testing anyone for their capacity to fight off a Dynamis based apocalypse and/or a Dynamis capable entity, is... a nice gesture from her, I suppose, but logically I don't see how she could be testing us, beside the generic "TEST OF WILLPOWER" trope.

[Lauront]

Indeed, we agree the writing of Endwalker is either an awkward retcon at best, or incompetent at worst. It took a reasonable, if debatable action, then shamelessly strawmanned it because uuhhhh what is nuance. Though I would like to say Zodiark did not temper Ancients in general, just the Convocation. Who were indeed respected world leaders, though in the context of a society based on debating, it's arguable how much sway they would have had on the overall population if the decisions they were making were obviously deranged.

Quite. There is no source giving any inference that their broader populace was tempered. Indeed, both they and the Convocation were divided over the matter of the third round of sacrifices, hence Elidibus emerging to mediate. In spite of the supposed effects of this tempering, Emet-Selch is able to re-consider his course in SHB, which not once does Yoshi attribute to tempering when discussing his underlying motives.

Regarding this notion that they'd just keep sacrificing forever and ever? The sole source for this is the codex in some languages. What is the codex? A piece of work implied to be authored by the WoL. Where do they get their info from? The Hyth shade and the 5.2 scene in Anamnesis, neither of which support this reading. So that leaves us with the not-really-literal walk of shame scene with Venat may try to suggest with a nudge and a wink, but it doesn't outright say that, and it suffers from the problem of being not-really-literal, and in any case, Yoshi still refers back to the Anamnesis scene during the Q&A, meaning there is no suggestion of a retcon of this earlier lore. What we instead have is an attempt at gaslighting and praying that players don't look at these older sources with too inquisitive a mind.

Of course, nothing stopping Yoshi & co from spitefully retconning stuff (or "fill in the details" with the same end in mind) if people are left insufficiently convinced of the necessity of Venat's actions to genocide her own people...

[MikkoAkure]

Though I would like to say Zodiark did not temper Ancients in general, just the Convocation. Who were indeed respected world leaders, though in the context of a society based on debating, it's arguable how much sway they would have had on the overall population if the decisions they were making were obviously deranged.

I would agree that the tempering was limited to the Convocation and anyone else who may have been immediately present with the summoning. But the Convocation making decisions others didn't believe in did have an effect on the populace because while Venat and everyone else were A-OK with summonings 1 and 2, the 3rd was what caused the main debate and ultimately the Sundering.

Tempering also has seen to have had some degree of control over the Ascians as well, unless you want to fully retcon ARR and say that all the scenes of the Ascians deranged praying to the "one true god" didn't happen. You would also think that a society based on logic and the original summoners wouldn't call a being of their own creation a god unless it had some sort of effect on them. While they did have a greater degree of freedom than we typically see of the tempered, there was still enough there for Emet-Selch to admit matter-of-factly that he is tempered. Besides the whole god thing, Emet-Selch kept coming back to the original plan over and over despite his straying and falling in love and having children with the Sundered. A small drum in the back of their heads to keep them marching to the beat would be enough to keep them going for 12,000 years while still retaining most of a free will.

What I wish would be explored in an official story would be an alternate universe or insight in a world where Amaurot continued without being Sundered. A being of immense power being referred to and treated as a god by the world leaders who summoned it has got to have an effect on the society.

[Teraq]

And just like that, I hit Ignore on the Concern Troll.

Enough with the "I want nuance too! [literally argues that they are 100% going to write Lahabrea as a flat and boring 2D villain]", "I wish we would get this Ancients Survive AU! [literally goes on to imply a ridiculous cryptodystopia fueled by spite writing because Omg Ancients Bad]".

You do not know how many Ancients were for or against the third sacrifice. Nobody knows. For all we know, they could just have been Venat's little pack of groupies and giga simps we saw in Anamnesis. You have no basis to argue that the Convocation went against "the people". Never mind the fact that, again and again, the third sacrifice and its nature (OMG THEY WERE TOTALLY FEEDING THEIR BLOOD GOD BABIES) did not directly impact Venat's motivations. YoshiP stated in the Q&A that her primary motive was that she believed it was a sign they were headed toward the same path as the Plenty.

Zodiark was a being of immense power that literally saved the planet that was all but doomed to rot and kickstarted life back up. I'm fine with them calling him a god considered what he accomplished. And yes, we can call out Ascian behavior as an ARR retcon, because the dev team has stated that they had no idea where they were going with the Ascians early on, and it was a shallow story. It is however more egregious to retcon ShB, a far more recent and nuanced storyline where they had a much better idea of where they wanted to go.

Where is it said that Emet "fell in love" with the Sundered? We know that he fathered children, but hopefully I don't have to explain to you that this act does not have to entail love. The only thing that truly ended up swaying Emet was the Source shard of Azem, a person he loved, whether platonically or romantically, as an Unsundered person.

All in all, you have demonstrated time and again that you post your obviously negatively biased headcanon of the Ancients as fact to prop up Sundered mankind. And of course you want to believe it, because you are extremely adamant to paint the Ancients and particularly the Convocation in the worst possible light, robbing the story of the precious nuance you claim to want by making one side obviously wrong and flawed. I do not believe you are genuinely interested in entertaining any sort of human portrayal of Ancients as having a point worth considering that would make the story actually morally grey and interesting, and are only interested in portraying them as a probably fascist cryptodystopia with a ruling caste divorced from the plucky little people your Azem totally defended – and let's throw in literal brainwashing too. No thanks.

[Theodric]

Of course, nothing stopping Yoshi & co from spitefully retconning stuff (or "fill in the details" with the same end in mind) if people are left insufficiently convinced of the necessity of Venat's actions to genocide her own people...

At least it will be fairly obvious if such a route is taken. We'll see as of tomorrow if there is anything in the way of course correction or if the writers are simply doubling down on bizarre messaging and the plague of 'rules for thee but not for me' where the protagonists are concerned.

With that said, minus the Ancients, Garleans and Voidsent there isn't a whole lot that appeals to me about this game any longer nor do I suspect that the current trajectory of loporrits shaking their behinds in the air as promotional footage for the game to lead to much of interest to me.

Nuance and balanced consequences both make for an interesting setting. Thankfully I can get both elsewhere from the likes of TESO if FFXIV insists on failing to provide it. Some of the upcoming MMO's are looking very promising in terms of looking like they're intending to offer up more than a glorified visual novel with increasing childish writing.

[MikkoAkure]

All in all, you have demonstrated time and again that you post your obviously negatively biased headcanon of the Ancients as fact to prop up Sundered mankind.

It's not headcanon if the game itself props up sundered mankind. 95% of the game takes place in the sundered world and is about our own struggles with that of the Ancients being lore that wasn't even conceptualized until halfway through the game's lifetime.

Their time is done and over with, not coming back whether they are shown as good, evil, or neutral. Arguing over the morality of their civilization will change nothing in the end because they're backstory, not THE story.

Enough with the "I want nuance too! [literally argues that they are 100% going to write Lahabrea as a flat and boring 2D villain]", "I wish we would get this Ancients Survive AU! [literally goes on to imply a ridiculous cryptodystopia fueled by spite writing because Omg Ancients Bad]".

I want a nuanced story. Do I expect that to happen with Lahabrea? As someone who has played this game for a decade and knows what to expect from the writers, I wouldn't get my hopes up and I said as much to both. Getting more than I expected would be a welcome surprise and if my expectations are lower for this questline then I won't be as disappointed.

I said an AU story would be neat, as all extra writing would be neat. I'm not sure what the rest of your rant is about there. I want more insight into the events of that time period and see what might have happened if Zodiark stuck around and others have mentioned that too.

It's no stretch to suggest that a physical god sitting around a society that didn't have one before is going to change things. If that idea feeds into Venat's reason for doing things, it would make her motivations better than what we were given. We had an AU story for the 8UC. We need something that better explains what was going on in that gap of information we have during the Final Days and that was just an idea.

Where is it said that Emet "fell in love" with the Sundered? We know that he fathered children, but hopefully I don't have to explain to you that this act does not have to entail love. The only thing that truly ended up swaying Emet was the Source shard of Azem, a person he loved, whether platonically or romantically, as an Unsundered person.

Hmm, I thought he had mentioned love here but must have remembered it wrong.

I have lived a thousand thousand of your lives. I have broken bread with you, fought with you, grown ill, grown old, sired children and yes, welcomed death’s sweet embrace.

Still, there was this line that shows he still have a spark of something:

Yet in spite of himself, when he cradled the newborn in his arms and stroked that downy hair, he could not help but hope. For what, he could not be certain, but he hoped nonetheless.
It made little difference in the end, for his son had succumbed to some absurd illness and returned to the Underworld long before his time. Not without leaving behind a legacy, however─a living, breathing, and ever-present reminder of that momentary lapse.

And just like that, I hit Ignore on the Concern Troll.

I don't think that's what it's meant for... so much for civilized discussion. Not sure how I was trolling. Just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I'm a troll. Despite disagreeing with them often and replying negatively, I sometimes agree with what Lauront and Theodoric say and will leave a like and not respond if I have no response to it.

But I guess hitting ignore on anyone who disagrees with you so you just see people who share your opinion is a tactic. Goodbye lol

[Lauront]

None of that has anything to do with Hydealyns reason for the sundering.

I wouldn't be so sure.

LL68 Q&A:

Q: Venat had good intentions and her plan worked out in the end. But as a result the world was Sundered and most of the Ancients suffered. Was Sundering the star really the only way to save it?

A: This is a question that I consulted with Nacchan (Natsuko Ishikawa, Scenario Writer of Endwalker) to come up with the answer so it will make sense when we explain it. At the very least, as Y’shtola theorizes, Venat believed that the Ancients, being so dense in Aether, could not control Dynamis. So she thought they could not have stopped the Final Days and its source. So you know there were other Ancients who thought summoning Zodiark would solve everything but she saw that summoning Zodiark and using it to deflect Meteion’s “Despair Beam” and thought, “even if we were to do this and keep going as we are the rest of the Ancients will probably be unable to change as a people” when she’s looking at Hermes, or “we will always be our own undoing”. If you look at the dungeon, “The Dead Ends”, at the very end there’s a boss called Ra-la, and that’s sort of our vision for what probably would have happened to the Ancients if we just let them continue as they were. So for that reason, she chose to Sunder the star to dilute mankind’s Aether so that someday they might be able to use Dynamis and to fight back against despair and the Final Days at the Source. As she herself says, this is not a simple matter of good and evil and she is agonized over whether her decision is correct and took it all upon herself all these time. I think everyone has a lot of different feelings about Venat and we wanted to communicate to you that Hydaelyn is not evil. However this is the decision she has made and she decided to split the world into 14 parts so that humans can use Dynamis and kill Endsinger, and that decision really makes me think, “Yeah, Venat is definitely an Ancient, huh”.

At the end of 5.0 we find out that Emet-Selch has been making these decisions about all of humanity and its imperfection. But at the very end he did grant you one more chance to re-evaluated his judgment. Hermes is also concerned with this to the degree that he erases his memory so that he can once again re-evaluate humanity and everything. He’s really concerned with fairness and humanity’s worth. Venat herself never talks about herself in this lofty way that she is making a judgment on all of mankind but when we see her holding the sword and say “Henceforth he shall walk” and Sundering the world, that really is an ancient moment that shows you how different the wholeness of these Ancient’s worth because normally we normal humans wouldn’t be able to make such a decision for all of mankind, so when I see that I really think, yeah, Venat was really one of them. I do get that Emet-Selch is really popular but I sort of agree with Alphinaud when Emet is talking about judging people and think, “What right does he have to do that?”, and that might be applicable to Venat too, like “What right does she have to do that?” with showing various things about the Ancients and how different they were from us as people and how they were sort of the same, so I think if you go back and look at all of the different parts including the side quest including the Ancients in them, you might find them interesting.

The bolded is articulated in-game by Y'shtola when she directly questions her, and confirmed back to her. The rest is strongly implied in her reasoning throughout 6.0, but either way, combined, these are the motives the writers have articulated.

(Of course one could question his whole "she's just an ancient bruh" schtick here, and more besides, but that horse has already been beaten to a fine, bloody pulp...)

[Theodric]

Well, it's a thread discussing the story so it's a fair assumption that sources are going to be taken from a number of different places by those who make a habit of following it.

It'd be preferable if this sort of thing was shown directly in the game but it unfortunately isn't.

[Rulakir]

I don't care enough about the story to care about a LL explanation thats not in the game.
I truely, really don't.

Seems like you shouldn't be posting about lore then.

Edit: Since it's been a while, new invite link for the thread Discord. Might come in handy if 6.2 is abysmal and anyone wants to mald about it. :P

https://discord.gg/7Yk3Ymyj

[SentioftheHoukai]

I would agree that the tempering was limited to the Convocation and anyone else who may have been immediately present with the summoning. But the Convocation making decisions others didn't believe in did have an effect on the populace because while Venat and everyone else were A-OK with summonings 1 and 2, the 3rd was what caused the main debate and ultimately the Sundering.

Tempering also has seen to have had some degree of control over the Ascians as well, unless you want to fully retcon ARR and say that all the scenes of the Ascians deranged praying to the "one true god" didn't happen. You would also think that a society based on logic and the original summoners wouldn't call a being of their own creation a god unless it had some sort of effect on them. While they did have a greater degree of freedom than we typically see of the tempered, there was still enough there for Emet-Selch to admit matter-of-factly that he is tempered. Besides the whole god thing, Emet-Selch kept coming back to the original plan over and over despite his straying and falling in love and having children with the Sundered. A small drum in the back of their heads to keep them marching to the beat would be enough to keep them going for 12,000 years while still retaining most of a free will.

What I wish would be explored in an official story would be an alternate universe or insight in a world where Amaurot continued without being Sundered. A being of immense power being referred to and treated as a god by the world leaders who summoned it has got to have an effect on the society.

I don't think I'll ever understand how people see the Convocation as nothing more than another group of Oppressive Shadow Council that holds all the power. They're literally voted in by the people, Hythlodaeus says as much. With the sole exception of the Fandaniel we come to know, Hermes who was groomed for the role by the previous Fandaniel. Nepotism, in other words. Kind of like how Venat was grooming Azem to be the next her. Odd how those who rise to their station that way turn out to be such bad eggs, eh?

Nevertheless, where you see something to revile in a "logic-based society" I personally instead see something to admire and praise. Beings based primarily upon logic need not necessarily mean they do not HAVE emotions, and the way more than half of this fandom goes on about the Ancients some of you begin to resemble those that tell me being neurodivergent means I have no feelings and don't care about others' feelings.

Disheartening.