What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[MikkoAkure]

Though I would like to say Zodiark did not temper Ancients in general, just the Convocation. Who were indeed respected world leaders, though in the context of a society based on debating, it's arguable how much sway they would have had on the overall population if the decisions they were making were obviously deranged.

I would agree that the tempering was limited to the Convocation and anyone else who may have been immediately present with the summoning. But the Convocation making decisions others didn't believe in did have an effect on the populace because while Venat and everyone else were A-OK with summonings 1 and 2, the 3rd was what caused the main debate and ultimately the Sundering.

Tempering also has seen to have had some degree of control over the Ascians as well, unless you want to fully retcon ARR and say that all the scenes of the Ascians deranged praying to the "one true god" didn't happen. You would also think that a society based on logic and the original summoners wouldn't call a being of their own creation a god unless it had some sort of effect on them. While they did have a greater degree of freedom than we typically see of the tempered, there was still enough there for Emet-Selch to admit matter-of-factly that he is tempered. Besides the whole god thing, Emet-Selch kept coming back to the original plan over and over despite his straying and falling in love and having children with the Sundered. A small drum in the back of their heads to keep them marching to the beat would be enough to keep them going for 12,000 years while still retaining most of a free will.

What I wish would be explored in an official story would be an alternate universe or insight in a world where Amaurot continued without being Sundered. A being of immense power being referred to and treated as a god by the world leaders who summoned it has got to have an effect on the society.

[Teraq]

And just like that, I hit Ignore on the Concern Troll.

Enough with the "I want nuance too! [literally argues that they are 100% going to write Lahabrea as a flat and boring 2D villain]", "I wish we would get this Ancients Survive AU! [literally goes on to imply a ridiculous cryptodystopia fueled by spite writing because Omg Ancients Bad]".

You do not know how many Ancients were for or against the third sacrifice. Nobody knows. For all we know, they could just have been Venat's little pack of groupies and giga simps we saw in Anamnesis. You have no basis to argue that the Convocation went against "the people". Never mind the fact that, again and again, the third sacrifice and its nature (OMG THEY WERE TOTALLY FEEDING THEIR BLOOD GOD BABIES) did not directly impact Venat's motivations. YoshiP stated in the Q&A that her primary motive was that she believed it was a sign they were headed toward the same path as the Plenty.

Zodiark was a being of immense power that literally saved the planet that was all but doomed to rot and kickstarted life back up. I'm fine with them calling him a god considered what he accomplished. And yes, we can call out Ascian behavior as an ARR retcon, because the dev team has stated that they had no idea where they were going with the Ascians early on, and it was a shallow story. It is however more egregious to retcon ShB, a far more recent and nuanced storyline where they had a much better idea of where they wanted to go.

Where is it said that Emet "fell in love" with the Sundered? We know that he fathered children, but hopefully I don't have to explain to you that this act does not have to entail love. The only thing that truly ended up swaying Emet was the Source shard of Azem, a person he loved, whether platonically or romantically, as an Unsundered person.

All in all, you have demonstrated time and again that you post your obviously negatively biased headcanon of the Ancients as fact to prop up Sundered mankind. And of course you want to believe it, because you are extremely adamant to paint the Ancients and particularly the Convocation in the worst possible light, robbing the story of the precious nuance you claim to want by making one side obviously wrong and flawed. I do not believe you are genuinely interested in entertaining any sort of human portrayal of Ancients as having a point worth considering that would make the story actually morally grey and interesting, and are only interested in portraying them as a probably fascist cryptodystopia with a ruling caste divorced from the plucky little people your Azem totally defended – and let's throw in literal brainwashing too. No thanks.

[MikkoAkure]

All in all, you have demonstrated time and again that you post your obviously negatively biased headcanon of the Ancients as fact to prop up Sundered mankind.

It's not headcanon if the game itself props up sundered mankind. 95% of the game takes place in the sundered world and is about our own struggles with that of the Ancients being lore that wasn't even conceptualized until halfway through the game's lifetime.

Their time is done and over with, not coming back whether they are shown as good, evil, or neutral. Arguing over the morality of their civilization will change nothing in the end because they're backstory, not THE story.

Enough with the "I want nuance too! [literally argues that they are 100% going to write Lahabrea as a flat and boring 2D villain]", "I wish we would get this Ancients Survive AU! [literally goes on to imply a ridiculous cryptodystopia fueled by spite writing because Omg Ancients Bad]".

I want a nuanced story. Do I expect that to happen with Lahabrea? As someone who has played this game for a decade and knows what to expect from the writers, I wouldn't get my hopes up and I said as much to both. Getting more than I expected would be a welcome surprise and if my expectations are lower for this questline then I won't be as disappointed.

I said an AU story would be neat, as all extra writing would be neat. I'm not sure what the rest of your rant is about there. I want more insight into the events of that time period and see what might have happened if Zodiark stuck around and others have mentioned that too.

It's no stretch to suggest that a physical god sitting around a society that didn't have one before is going to change things. If that idea feeds into Venat's reason for doing things, it would make her motivations better than what we were given. We had an AU story for the 8UC. We need something that better explains what was going on in that gap of information we have during the Final Days and that was just an idea.

Where is it said that Emet "fell in love" with the Sundered? We know that he fathered children, but hopefully I don't have to explain to you that this act does not have to entail love. The only thing that truly ended up swaying Emet was the Source shard of Azem, a person he loved, whether platonically or romantically, as an Unsundered person.

Hmm, I thought he had mentioned love here but must have remembered it wrong.

I have lived a thousand thousand of your lives. I have broken bread with you, fought with you, grown ill, grown old, sired children and yes, welcomed death’s sweet embrace.

Still, there was this line that shows he still have a spark of something:

Yet in spite of himself, when he cradled the newborn in his arms and stroked that downy hair, he could not help but hope. For what, he could not be certain, but he hoped nonetheless.
It made little difference in the end, for his son had succumbed to some absurd illness and returned to the Underworld long before his time. Not without leaving behind a legacy, however─a living, breathing, and ever-present reminder of that momentary lapse.

And just like that, I hit Ignore on the Concern Troll.

I don't think that's what it's meant for... so much for civilized discussion. Not sure how I was trolling. Just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I'm a troll. Despite disagreeing with them often and replying negatively, I sometimes agree with what Lauront and Theodoric say and will leave a like and not respond if I have no response to it.

But I guess hitting ignore on anyone who disagrees with you so you just see people who share your opinion is a tactic. Goodbye lol

[SentioftheHoukai]

I would agree that the tempering was limited to the Convocation and anyone else who may have been immediately present with the summoning. But the Convocation making decisions others didn't believe in did have an effect on the populace because while Venat and everyone else were A-OK with summonings 1 and 2, the 3rd was what caused the main debate and ultimately the Sundering.

Tempering also has seen to have had some degree of control over the Ascians as well, unless you want to fully retcon ARR and say that all the scenes of the Ascians deranged praying to the "one true god" didn't happen. You would also think that a society based on logic and the original summoners wouldn't call a being of their own creation a god unless it had some sort of effect on them. While they did have a greater degree of freedom than we typically see of the tempered, there was still enough there for Emet-Selch to admit matter-of-factly that he is tempered. Besides the whole god thing, Emet-Selch kept coming back to the original plan over and over despite his straying and falling in love and having children with the Sundered. A small drum in the back of their heads to keep them marching to the beat would be enough to keep them going for 12,000 years while still retaining most of a free will.

What I wish would be explored in an official story would be an alternate universe or insight in a world where Amaurot continued without being Sundered. A being of immense power being referred to and treated as a god by the world leaders who summoned it has got to have an effect on the society.

I don't think I'll ever understand how people see the Convocation as nothing more than another group of Oppressive Shadow Council that holds all the power. They're literally voted in by the people, Hythlodaeus says as much. With the sole exception of the Fandaniel we come to know, Hermes who was groomed for the role by the previous Fandaniel. Nepotism, in other words. Kind of like how Venat was grooming Azem to be the next her. Odd how those who rise to their station that way turn out to be such bad eggs, eh?

Nevertheless, where you see something to revile in a "logic-based society" I personally instead see something to admire and praise. Beings based primarily upon logic need not necessarily mean they do not HAVE emotions, and the way more than half of this fandom goes on about the Ancients some of you begin to resemble those that tell me being neurodivergent means I have no feelings and don't care about others' feelings.

Disheartening.

[Striker44]

I don't think I'll ever understand how people see the Convocation as nothing more than another group of Oppressive Shadow Council that holds all the power. They're literally voted in by the people, Hythlodaeus says as much. With the sole exception of the Fandaniel we come to know, Hermes who was groomed for the role by the previous Fandaniel. Nepotism, in other words. Kind of like how Venat was grooming Azem to be the next her. Odd how those who rise to their station that way turn out to be such bad eggs, eh?

I'm curious where you got this idea from. Everything I remember seeing pointed to the members of the convocation themselves being the ones to ask and then appoint successors for their roles. I don't recall seeing anything about a democratic election of the Convocation by the ancients at large.

[Theodric]

I'm curious where you got this idea from. Everything I remember seeing pointed to the members of the convocation themselves being the ones to ask and then appoint successors for their roles. I don't recall seeing anything about a democratic election of the Convocation by the ancients at large.

Luckily I had a post of mine saved related to the subject as it comes up fairly often so I'll just go ahead and quote myself:

Huh? From what I recall, it's been pointed out many times throughout a variety of threads that the Convocation was not simply going off and doing its own thing with zero oversight and accountability. It wasn't a hive mind, either - since Elidibus' seat was designed to sometimes align with the Convocation on some occasions and against it on others.

There's also the conversation between the player character and Hythlodaeus during the Elpis portion of the story, as seen here:



Note how it is pointed out that countless people from the world over vouched for Emet-Selch, rather than just the Convocation.

Their entire society is also built around research and debate.

I'd also point to this snippet from one of the short stories:



An outright insinuation that debates are held in regards to the suitability of individuals appointed to positions of authority.

[Causante]

I would agree that the tempering was limited to the Convocation and anyone else who may have been immediately present with the summoning. But the Convocation making decisions others didn't believe in did have an effect on the populace because while Venat and everyone else were A-OK with summonings 1 and 2, the 3rd was what caused the main debate and ultimately the Sundering.

I don't think people didn't believe the convocation, their decisions saved the remaining ancients and restored the planet albeit at a terrible cost and people had to volunteer for that even before the summoning ocurred after all. Your conclusion makes it sound like zodiark was manipulating the convocation, which in turn was manipulating the populace, prompting venat to perform a drastic act to save "life". I'm sure you'll agree that's not what happened or how it was portrayed in recent expansions.

Tempering also has seen to have had some degree of control over the Ascians as well, unless you want to fully retcon ARR and say that all the scenes of the Ascians deranged praying to the "one true god" didn't happen.

I'm pretty sure we're supposed to accept that as full retcon. I may be wrong on this, but I don't remember ascians praising zodiark as a "true god" in a fanatical sense since they changed the writing around the ascians. What it felt to me is that from then on they treated zodiark as the embodiment of their hopes for a future where they could recover what they had lost.

In my mind this makes sense even in a logical society if you think about it. They were on the verge of extinction, everything they knew was being destroyed and people around them dying. All this happening without a cause or a reason (from their perspective). And then this all powerful being makes everything stop and is even able to restore the planet (to some extent) to what it once was. I think it should be doable to understand that a lot of people, specially those less versed in the sciences or creation magicks, would start to worship their "savior". Others, on the other hand, would be afraid of him given what they had (as a collective) to sacrifice, which would explain why they were so divided. The mental state of the ancient society must have been chaotic after dealing with such a catastrophe.

This scenario could've been explored way better to try and give more convincing explanations for the downfall of ancient society and Venat actions, but it's not how they went about it endwalker. It's not about Zodiark, it's about Hermes and Venat's beliefs.

[SentioftheHoukai]

I don't think people didn't believe the convocation, their decisions saved the remaining ancients and restored the planet albeit at a terrible cost and people had to volunteer for that even before the summoning ocurred after all. Your conclusion makes it sound like zodiark was manipulating the convocation, which in turn was manipulating the populace, prompting venat to perform a drastic act to save "life". I'm sure you'll agree that's not what happened or how it was portrayed in recent expansions.



I'm pretty sure we're supposed to accept that as full retcon. I may be wrong on this, but I don't remember ascians praising zodiark as a "true god" in a fanatical sense since they changed the writing around the ascians. What it felt to me is that from then on they treated zodiark as the embodiment of their hopes for a future where they could recover what they had lost.

In my mind this makes sense even in a logical society if you think about it. They were on the verge of extinction, everything they knew was being destroyed and people around them dying. All this happening without a cause or a reason (from their perspective). And then this all powerful being makes everything stop and is even able to restore the planet (to some extent) to what it once was. I think it should be doable to understand that a lot of people, specially those less versed in the sciences or creation magicks, would start to worship their "savior". Others, on the other hand, would be afraid of him given what they had (as a collective) to sacrifice, which would explain why they were so divided. The mental state of the ancient society must have been chaotic after dealing with such a catastrophe.

This scenario could've been explored way better to try and give more convincing explanations for the downfall of ancient society and Venat actions, but it's not how they went about it endwalker. It's not about Zodiark, it's about Hermes and Venat's beliefs.

Yeah, that ONE TRUE GOD nonsense literally happened ONE FRICKIN' TIME in the height of ARR foolishness in a single damn cutscene. Not exactly damning evidence as it is, and like others have said none of the moral nuance surrounding the Ascians and Ancients existed back then.

People vouching for Emet-Selch isn’t the same as a democratic election. That poster earlier was insinuating that Azem and Fandaniel snuck through the “regular” process via nepotism and the others were democratically voted in and this is not the case.

Ancients are not casting ballots for Convocation seats. If a seat is open, it looks like the sitting members will go around and look for recommendations.

In all honesty, I'll admit my info was slightly inaccurate but frankly that was hardly the point. The important part is all these fools thinking their a bunch of tyrants who make decisions for the entire populace with no checks or balances and there is plentiful evidence to suggest this is not the case. People just decide to ignore it in favor of their headcanons that unilaterally prove Venat morally upstanding without flaw.