cheating onsal pallies

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

By that logic why not have PVE systems in PVP? Less systems to work on!

False equivalency. The reason PVP got split from PVE was to be able to balance PVP actions / kits separately without affecting the main game.

To create another set of sub-systems within that separate system would be redundant and unnecessary workload when the more time-efficient solution is to try out various modifiers and system-wide PVP changes and see how those affect the modes.

Since SE can't even test their stuff why even worry about having more systems? Just give back old PVP for FL and call it a day.

About FL: Remove the roulette and see how dead it will become

You are essentially asking of them to eliminate every single possibility of a bug occuring (Cure II) or a system to be perfectly balanced out of the box when it arrives while having limited task force AND time to actually test all of this before they ever ship something to Live Service. They likely already removed most bugs, but god forbid one slips through the cracks.

Adding to this that the playerbase is often way more creative at trying things out and notice this, you realise how borderline impossible this is without having a dedicated beta service, something FFXIV won't have?

Furthermore, old PvP in frontline was equally problematic if not worse:
- Ranged LB corridors just like we have with WHM laser
- Caster LB point nuke just like Bahamut at the moment
- Ranged / Dragoon / Ninja supremacy for mobility and safe + solid damage. (ranged less so at the moment)
- Anything without an AOE lifesteal essentially getting bullied into non-existence by pulling with Blota (Holmgang)
- Anyone who had to do their main damage in melee range while not being a tank basically being reduced to a terrible assassin.
- Deathball playstyle or bust

So please take the rose-tinted glasses off, Frontline was not "so much better before 6.1". Times changed.

Regarding Roulette: We are playing an MMORPG with an increasingly incentive-driven community that won't lift a finger without any reward tied to it. Let's see how any of these will get players on a regular basis if we remove their respective roulettes:

- Alliance Raids
- Normal Raids
- Extreme Trials (affected by Mentor Roulette)
- Meridianum, Praetorium, Porta Decumana
- Levelcap dungeons (50/60/70/80)

Frontline isn't unique to this, so of course less players would play it if it had no roulette, AND it takes 72 players. This was no different from when Frontlines were balanced and more nuanced, but they hardly popped.

[BRVV]

False equivalency. The reason PVP got split from PVE was to be able to balance PVP actions / kits separately without affecting the main game.

False equivalency. The reason FL got split from CC was to be able to balance FL actions / kits separately without affecting CC.

You are essentially asking of them to eliminate every single possibility of a bug occuring

Nope buddy. I ask them to detect bugs that can easily be found. Stuff in rotations and Onsal Pala cheese are easy to find.

Regarding the point about incentives: There is almost NO point in playing CC, yet it is played a lot. CC doesn't have a roulette, gives little exp and the rewards for the trophy crystalls will finally get an update tomorrow. Yet it takes like a minute to get a match. How is that?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

False equivalency. The reason FL got split from CC was to be able to balance FL actions / kits separately without affecting CC.

How did FL get split from CC? They use the same base system just with %-based modifiers for different jobs. That is not the same as wondering what to do with Enmity combos (back when this system split happened) or how to change ability xy without affecting the viability of the job in PVE. They did this because the benefits for having a separate system and skillset for PVP outweighed the cost (time, money (devs)) and would prevent a lot of hassle going into the future.

Nope buddy. I ask them to detect bugs that can easily be found. Stuff in rotations and Onsal Pala cheese are easy to find.

Ok first of all, take your slimey "buddy" back to yourself, I don't call you "sweetie" or "honey" either.

Second, Cure II is not part of rotations and even while at the Wolves' Den Pier when we were like 200 ppl each hardly anyone got the idea to see what happens when you CANCEL a cast and whether it would refund you two stacks. I did not expect them to find that out of the box and it got fixed fairly quickly, as quick as server update scheduling allows.

The Onsal Pala cheese is maybe something they could have predicted, on the other hand maybe they thought we wouldn't use this overly much or the impact wouldn't be as great. Again, how to fix this I mentioned a few times (if not in this thread probably in others regarding this topic) and the problems tied to those solutions I also mentioned.

Regarding the point about incentives: There is almost NO point in playing CC, yet it is played a lot. CC doesn't have a roulette, gives little exp and the rewards for the trophy crystalls will finally get an update tomorrow. Yet it takes like a minute to get a match. How is that?

- newest PvP mode with an easy to understand objective
- takes 10 players with the only limitation of no double jobs per team compared to 72 players.
- takes at most 5 minutes to complete, 6 if you count start-up + wait time
- individual impact much higher, thus more fun

Cannot account for Wolf Marks and Series EXP per match, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was the fastest income source in time-to-output for it.

[BRVV]

How did FL get split from CC?

It didn't. My point was that you can rephrase your statement and make the same points why CC and FL should have different systems.

Second, Cure II is not part of rotations

Testing small functions and veryfing that the global state hasn't changed in an unexpected way is one of the fundamentals of unit testing.

The Onsal Pala cheese is maybe something they could have predicted

Not only that. They could have fixed it by now...

- newest PvP mode with an easy to understand objective
- takes 10 players with the only limitation of no double jobs per team compared to 72 players.
- takes at most 5 minutes to complete, 6 if you count start-up + wait time
- individual impact much higher, thus more fun

Also:
- highly luck based (both in afk teammembers and if you get a streak)
- incentivises you NOT to play ranked at certain points in fear of unranking (also because you ONLY get the background for the tier you ended up in)
- due to the short span being more vulnerable to server tick problems and teammembers getting kicked off the game
- balancing nightmare
- annoying weird chat system (why implement yet another system?)
- getting kicked off the que because the map changes

Ok first of all, take your slimey "buddy" back to yourself, I don't call you "sweetie" or "honey" either.

Fair

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[1]It didn't. My point was that you can rephrase your statement and make the same points why CC and FL should have different systems.

[2]Testing small functions and veryfing that the global state hasn't changed in an unexpected way is one of the fundamentals of unit testing.

[3](onsal PLD)Not only that. They could have fixed it by now...

[4]Also:
- highly luck based (both in afk teammembers and if you get a streak)
- incentivises you NOT to play ranked at certain points in fear of unranking (also because you ONLY get the background for the tier you ended up in)
- due to the short span being more vulnerable to server tick problems and teammembers getting kicked off the game
- balancing nightmare
- annoying weird chat system (why implement yet another system?)
- getting kicked off the que because the map changes

1) I suppose that is how you see it, to me at least it doesn't seem like a logical comparison.

2) While true, this is the one thing that did slip through. This isn't the first time they release heavy bugs and won't be the last time. It is prudent to give benefit of the doubt here that they may have needed to crunch time.

3) Well... they could have, but again there are multiple options with significant downsides or workload, which is why they have not yet. We will see in a few hours if something is in the patch notes about it.

4) List:
- I honestly am not sure how I feel about this. Yes afk teammembers is bad luck no doubt, but streaks / wins...?

- absolutely true, 100%. thanks to the genius idea to basically remove any and all reason for me to take Ranked seriously by making both Wolf Collars freely accessible with Trophy Crystals AND removing any unique reward from the Top 100 leaderboard, we definitely have the problem of people in the upper brackets taking ranked much less seriously than Season 18-20 of Feast for example.

Like, congratulations - you eliminated FOMO and gave us BORDERS as a reward. I am very happy for the casual players who got to have cool armour and next up a decent mount in their Series Rewards, but did we really need to remove any incentive for Ranked to balance it? Like why not a recolour of the Series Reward?

- unsure what you mean by that

- its a new design philosophy with focus on fast-paced combat. So yeah, it is difficult to balance. But to quote Yoshida from recent interviews, he is fairly happy with the current PvP balance, so who knows what this means.

- ...that system existed for many years and was the result of early PvP being a toxic mess pre-game and mid-game the moment anyone tilts. And before you wonder - the JP are about as guilty as us, borderline worse in certain aspects. Personally would prefer I could make my own macro callouts, but here we are.

- I mean, would you rather forget to leave queue and wonder why it took you 3h to get the next match? They could probably just remove the rotation and just select the map at random, but the current kick-out-of-queue serves purpose.

[BRVV]

Good points. I like this discussion

As for the point you didn't understand, i might have worded that weird. I mean errors due to bad server ticks (like Purification not working) and getting kicked off the game for a short moment and the like - those are worse in CC because CC is relatively short. In a casual dungeon the group will usually wait before the next pull or boss for the party member that had a disconnect. In CC you don't have that luxury. That means those issues become bigger problems.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Ah I see what you mean.

Regarding Purification -> Resilience timing, I personally thought Resilience simply requires the following extra property:
Resilience = "While under the effect of Resilience, will prevent application of debuffs affected by Purify and will recover any existing debuffs affected by Purify instantly". That would provide a catch-up to debuffs slipping through.

Also they should totally either tone down crowd control abilities or re-add Fetter Ward (Resilience but you cast it first) as a global PvP action. Or at least for large-scale PvP they should add CC fatigue / resistence.

As for things that kick you out of the game, those are probably a bit more difficult to fix (heard of getting Heavy while using Powerful Shot BRD or Blast Charge MCH being one of it), but believe me, those are most likely high up on the list to fix.

But yeah - if someone DCs... god have mercy. In top-ranked Feast we had a gentleman's agreement to draw a match if that occured, alas we were a much more contained playerbase.

[Kuroka]

please permaban all paladins exploiting cover in onsal thank you

YES. I would not mind if its every now and then but its pretty clear some do ONLY that on purpose and you can do anything against it - especially as you cant always notice it right away if there 20 ppl fighting...

Its just stupid id didnt get hotfixed week 1... just reduce the cover time so one cant cover the whole time needed to claim a spot. Or make the claiming break the cover...

[tsuchii]

It is not cheating if it is working as intended. Can someone with an OFFICIAL confirmation from SE that it is indeed a bug?

[Lambda-Delta]

It is not cheating if it is working as intended. Can someone with an OFFICIAL confirmation from SE that it is indeed a bug?

I tried looking but I couldn't see any official confirmation from SE that this is how they intended it....if it is, I'd love to give them a slap.

Tbh, it would just be amazing to be able to get an official response in this post.