Live Letter Thoughts

[TheMightyMollusk]

I already stated my point.

So basically both sides are terrible and we're better off without all of them.

[Lauront]

Yeah, and I am sure we could repeat such comments if a supreme deity appeared pointing to all the frailties of the sundered, mirrored in mankind, that resulted in their decision to break them, lest they fall prey to Dead Ends 1, 2 or possibly even 3, or some other creative instantiation of forging ahead. The sundered are pretty terrible, after all - there's those sordid caves in Sastasha, the persecution of the Garlean Purebloods fomenting the conditions to later form an empire bent on revenge through conquest, the conditions in Doma contributing to Yotsuyu's vindictiveness, the zombification of Sildih (and again Ul'dah exploiting the beast tribe categorisation for the pursuit of its own profit), the murder of Ratatoskr and concealment of the event, the Allagan empire and wanton experimentation which led Amon to revile present-day mankind as well as the ancients... the fact that our very own WoL genocided a bunch of gorillas in a fate... the usual fate killing sprees... the fact that the sundered aren't all vegans and so engage in habitual mass slaughter of non-human lifeforms. And plenty I am forgetting.

We'd be much better off without them all.

(Of course the story never takes this approach with them and instead positions them as having the right to fight to exist in spite of all of the above, in spite of all their imperfections and misdeeds... a perfectly fine position, I just wish that courtesy were extended to the ancients in the story's narrative treatment of them.)

[TheMightyMollusk]

I do hate people, so sure, let's go for it.

[Lauront]

I do hate people, so sure, let's go for it.

Well I am sure with the right incentives Meteion could be convinced to get back into her old line of work.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Well I am sure with the right incentives Meteion could be convinced to get back into her old line of work.

Could we teach her some new songs first? Maybe some death metal, really get us in the apocalyptic mood?

Just don't let the internet pick, or we'll all be Rick Rolled into oblivion.

[thegreatonemal]

(Of course the story never takes this approach with them and instead positions them as having the right to fight to exist in spite of all of the above... a perfectly fine position, I just wish that courtesy were extended to the ancients in the story's narrative treatment of them.)

It does. They just lost and the story has us on the other side. The story also acknowledges their side and characters understand why they are trying to do this. That doesn't mean we were going to let them do it.

[Bobby66]

How is it every time they are mentioned this becomes a debate about genocide.

[Lauront]

It does. They just lost and the story has us on the other side. The story also acknowledges their side and characters understand why they are trying to do this. That doesn't mean we were going to let them do it.

But it doesn't. It very strongly tried to justify Venat's decision through giving the impression of it both being necessary and the best conceivable outcome given the circumstances (with the writers even nudging somewhat in this direction in some of the interviews, e.g. posing the rhetorical question of whether Hermes was the first step for mankind), stylising the sundering (this is only depicted somewhat more directly in its brutal aftermath in the Nier mobile crossover), with precious little raised as an objection to it throughout the story. The notion of how this contradicts various ideals or previous positions of the Scions (or even Emet, who is conscripted in praising Venat) does not even enter the dialogue - at most there is a half-hearted apology from her, but not specifically to the ancients, but instead addressed to her sundered champions, and Y'shtola pretty briskly brushes it aside. Only later through the Q&A (which predicates her decision more heavily on her beliefs) and within the Omega quest (which introduces a re-consideration of the actions of Emet, Hermes and Venat, questioning all three, as well as walking back the notion that there is a singular 'correct' response to despair in the context of the Endsinger) is this watered down. If you are referring, on the other hand, to the struggles of the Ascians, note this isn't what I am referring to nor is it what sparked this whole little discussion in the first place; rather, it was a reference to an AU.

[Anura]

Hey, I'm not applauding the countless fake deaths the game constantly throw at us and I WOULD like a darker story. BUT messing with timelines just so people can feel better would be ridiculous. Actions have consequences and that would just remove the bad and sad things to introduce a forced "happy ending." We should ask for more consequences for everyone, including us, not begging for another time travel garbage because some people can't let go.

[Lauront]

The "end it with the time travel garbage" ship sailed with EW, which plastered the mother of all time loops over its entire plot so centrally that significant elements of the setting's lore are now directly the result of a causal loop, with arguably detrimental effects on aspects of the world-building flowing from this (i.e. alternative, potentially more interesting explanations for these plot elements were discarded.) An AU is rather trivial by comparison and rather than undoing any 'consequences' in the current timeline would simply provide an opportunity to see how the ancients could handle matters given better circumstances - it need not even involve keeping faves like Emet around as you could pitch it after his demise (although SE seem hellbent on milking his popularity through cameos in flashbacks, so six of one, half a dozen of the other...) Again, while I think it'd be cool, it's not necessary to me so much as a firmer acknowledgement that things may well have turned out better for them had they been given the full story, rather than this being left as an hypothetical to be dangled about in interminable discussions relating to them. However, the objection to it that it will somehow introduce a forced happy ending at this point to me seems rather moot. With so many stars destroyed, it is but one other way of introducing a future expansion destination to the story.

Regarding people "letting go", you cannot fault them for enjoying the ancients when it was the very intention of the writers to build sympathy for the Ascians by showing the people that they lost - and this civilisation appealed to many far more than the ones we've seen put on screen so far. Some of us are somewhat less interested in the future of the game in their absence, and particularly if it doubles down on the (rather hypocritical) storytelling approach it took with them...