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  1. #11
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,618
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by WaxSw View Post
    The game is simply not balanced with dungeons in mind due to the presence of heavy AoE, raid buffs being designed in the context of 8 player party and the wider skill spectrum normal mode dungeons have over high end duties. This is not a problem because dungeons rarely push any job to the point no other member in the party can't compensate, by design, so there is never a situation of a job being "too difficult to meet the requirements to clear" since the bar to clear is at ground level.

    Criterion dungeons "may" need to balance some things especially if dps is a metric as important as in savage but its too early to say anything about that yet



    Sch while having the strongest AoE GCD isn't strong enough to compensate for its lack of AoE damage cooldowns and its raid debuff is only applied to one enemy which has a lot less value in AoE scenarios + ED being single target not only means Aetherflow healing as Sch still implies a dps loss but doesn't give that much of a gain over things like Missery so... I guess that's why the OP said that? Weird that they mention Sch and not Ast which is the weakest dungeon healer while Sch even with all the previous things isn't that much behind the top 2
    SCH exceeds WHM in 90% of pulls (the only pull it’s weaker than WHM is a very short pull where they dump a misery) but yeah it’s weaker than SGE because SGE has three AOE DPS gain skills over dyskrasia while SCH has none and SCH’s extra damage abilities as you say scale horribly in dungeons

    But yeah if you want to mention bad dungeon scaling for healers AST is 100% the one you want to discuss
    (1)

  2. #12
    Player NekoMataMata's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    1,849
    Character
    Feline Good
    World
    Halicarnassus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatOfWar View Post
    As a DRK main, i have never, ever, ever experienced that. It performs just fine. All tanks can do wall to wall pulls.
    That's not entirely true though. DRK doesn't have anywhere close to the sustain of even GNB, much less in comparison to PLD or WAR. You can W2W on DRK but you need both your healer and the DRK to know what they're doing.

    The skill floor for DRK is a bit higher than the other three(which isn't a bad thing but it matters). There is no misery as great as having to heal a bad DRK. If I have a choice of what tank I want someone with zero braincells to be playing, it's not going to be DRK, even if I'm not allowed to pick WAR.
    (2)
    Last edited by NekoMataMata; 08-16-2022 at 07:28 AM.

  3. #13
    Player
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Posts
    959
    Quote Originally Posted by WaxSw View Post
    Sch while having the strongest AoE GCD isn't strong enough to compensate for its lack of AoE damage cooldowns and its raid debuff is only applied to one enemy which has a lot less value in AoE scenarios
    Give SCH the PvP Deployment Tactics Bane already SE you cowards, it would at least give SCH 2 AoE DPS abilities instead of 1 and nobody is using Deployment Tactics in dungeon trash pulls anyways
    (1)

  4. #14
    Player
    Tlamila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,469
    Character
    Ainslie Tinley
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizzi View Post
    Give SCH the PvP Deployment Tactics Bane already SE you cowards, it would at least give SCH 2 AoE DPS abilities instead of 1 and nobody is using Deployment Tactics in dungeon trash pulls anyways
    SCH used to have an aoe dot from what I recall, wasn't it Virus? They deleted it.
    Just like they removed Aero 3 (also aoe dot) from WHM.
    I'll never understand it.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player
    Saraide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    3,082
    Character
    Saraide Derosa
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by NekoMataMata View Post
    That's not entirely true though. DRK doesn't have anywhere close to the sustain of even GNB, much less in comparison to PLD or WAR.

    Plus the skill floor for DRK is a bit higher than the other three(which isn't a bad thing but it matters). There is no misery as great as having to heal a bad DRK. If I have a choice of what tank I want someone with zero braincells to be playing, it's not going to be DRK, even if I'm not allowed to pick WAR.
    Heart of conundrum isnt going to save a tank that is never using it.
    (1)

  6. #16
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,618
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Tlamila View Post
    SCH used to have an aoe dot from what I recall, wasn't it Virus? They deleted it.
    Just like they removed Aero 3 (also aoe dot) from WHM.
    I'll never understand it.
    SCH used to have bane which spread its DOT’s, shadowflare was naturally AOE though, virus reduced strength and dexterity
    (1)

  7. #17
    Player
    Tlamila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,469
    Character
    Ainslie Tinley
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    SCH used to have bane which spread its DOT’s, shadowflare was naturally AOE though, virus reduced strength and dexterity
    My bad, I got confused, I never played SCH much.
    In any case they did have those things and hav them removed, even more than I remembered, no dice getting them back. Very sad.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    3,947
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by HyonaCookie View Post
    Some tuning to jobs based on dungeons would help Dark Knight be less of a pain to do big pulls as most of their problems with mitigation and self-sustain is most evident in dungeon content. If dungeon balance was considered more, it wouldn’t feel as bad to take into dungeons and people would stop automatically leaving or harassing you because you chose to play DRK.
    Pardon me... just how often this "I got harassed for playing X jobs in dungeon"-case happens? I'll be honest, your post is literally the first one I ever read and/or hear. Either way, that's very reportable.

    It would also help Scholar not have to burn through so many resources during trash packs which other healers can do with less effort. Or when paired with a bad tank who doesn’t use their mitigations. And party buffs like chain strat or bard songs barely feel like they do much in dungeons.
    At this point of reading, I'd like to ask you this: why do you think they need it? Would you like to solo sustain yourself with DRK like WARs do? Would you like to be able heal your party with DRK like PLD do in the event your healer drops dead? Would you like SCH have their version of Benediction or Macrocosmos just so they can have their own "Nope"-button vs incoming damage?

    As a SCH main, I have to say that they absolutely don't need anymore help in dungeons in healing department. There is not any moment I've seen a SCH failing to keep their party alive because of the job itself; it's always because they choose the wrong buttons and/or misjudges situations on hand. Those aren't job's issue; it's skills issue.

    I think some problems people have with jobs could be solved if dungeon balance was considered more. If dungeons are supposed to be clearable by all jobs, I don’t see why some jobs should require more skill to do as well as others within it.
    The key thing is: they are all viable. The only real solution to this dillema you dislike is to turn every single jobs to play exactly the same way. At that point, one has to ask why do we even need 19 jobs across 3 roles...? You cannot have varieties without introducing even the slightest amount of gameplay nuances and/or hinderances that will inevitably make one job requires more effort than the other. And that is fine. If you don't like a tank that trades their self sustenance lightly for slightly more offensive edge (DRK), there's always 3 other tanks (PLD WAR GNB) to pick up that can sustain themselves better, at different degree of effectiveness.

    I swear these sort of requests has been giving me PTSD ever since they took away WAR’s conal Overpower. Now they feel too similar to play w/ all tanks. Why did I even waste my time to learn maneuver the different shape of AoE when the solution to that is to just keep complaining until they change it…
    (3)
    Last edited by Rein_eon_Osborne; 08-16-2022 at 08:10 AM.

  9. #19
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,618
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    I was so hyper focused on the SCH comment because it’s my main that I didn’t even see the “people leave because a DRK is the tank comment”

    I’m sorry but when does that ever happen, this honestly just sounds like a “the dungeon didn’t go well because either i was bad or the healer is used to expert roulette WAR’s so il gonna complain so that DRK becomes a tank that doesn’t need healers like WAR”
    (1)

  10. #20
    Player
    Equitable_Remedy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    917
    Character
    Eristede Kell
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 100
    Another thing to consider is that dungeons are casual content, and many people play them (very, extremely) casually—it's hard to get an accurate gauge of where jobs stand.

    I'm going to make a very bold prediction: like savage raids, the savage dungeon will be clearable with all jobs.
    (1)

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