What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

I am not sure what warrants the eye rolls here; whether we are talking about skin tone or actual in-universe human race, any glance at official artwork of the Scions makes it obvious the main cast is overwhelmingly white, with white or blond hair, with one too many Elezen, and nearly culturally homogenous, what with them being Sharlayan scholars. I'll even extend the olive branch here and argue that the fair-skinned, fair-haired look is also too present in antagonists and the antagonist-adjacent cast – I sure hope Athena is going to be dark-skinned enough, because at least one person in that couple needs to look like they could have reasonably produced a child with Erichthonios's complexion.

Vrtra being included in the cast is a very welcome change of pace. Jullus, Gaius and Nero could bring in-game racial and cultural diversity and perhaps even, I dare say, tension within the main cast. Having replayed through the last patch of Heavensward recently, it was plainly obvious that one of the things I love that Endwalker was direly lacking in was having a morally ambiguous character on board. Nero sneering at the Scions' technology, standing there as Gosetsu was super excited to go fight some imperials and generally acting like Cid's scorned ex while Yugiri was threatening to shank him there and then was just fantastic IMO. Then, obviously, we had Shadowbringers hit it out of the park in very similar fashion. It shouldn't be any secret to anyone who has read my posts that my dearest wish for 6.0 was for this role to be fulfilled by at least one Sundered Ascian and/or Elidibus – Zodiark himself, as it were – helping us against Zenos and Fandaniel, IMO a massive missed opportunity for the expac that was supposed to conclude the Hydaelyn/Zodiark (and by proxy, Ascian) arc.

Also, while we're mentioning him, yes, I thought Thancred had died there in Ahm Araeng too – the shot of his gunblade planted in the ground was really evocative. Turns out he survived, but at what cost? A lot about him in Endwalker was a missed opportunity IMO, first and foremost the complete and utter dissonance that's been doubtlessly pointed out about him not being the slightest bit hostile to Hydaelyn always planning to ditch the Shards if push came to shove. I did like the Metal Gear Thancred duty though, it played to his strengths and harked back to his past missions of sneaking into Garlemald. And a minor thing, but I would have liked it to be explained or acknowledged that his massive Dynamis feat of literally creating a liveable atmosphere because he felt very, very hard with his power of friendship might have had something to do with his incapacity to manipulate Aether. As it stands, it seems this was little more than the Calvinball rule of the day in application. Dynamis – it just works!


--

And so... are you guys excited for those arrogant, vile, dystopian Ancients to be knocked down a peg in Pandaemonium? God knows they need it – 6.0 sure didn't already throw everything it had to otherize them! I am so, so looking forward to being told Lahabrea was a terrible person for repressing his memories and his dark thoughts and emotions and materializing them in corporeal form, or whatever the story is going to be, and that this is representative of the arrogance and hubris of Ancients as a whole, because he was unable to Forge Ahead™ after the death of his wife – while we spend the MSQ trying to save a loved relative of an immortal being who hasn't moved on, but you see that's different. Endwalker simply wants you to know that these perfectly human people were not really human, but really immature, emotionally stunted, arrogant big ol' manbabies who played god with their terrible magicks because they unmade flawed concepts that were effectively animal AIs this early in their conception in that one testing facility, and deserved everything they got, and anyway your luminescent-eyed husbandos are DEAD AND NOT COMING BACK, SWEATIE – now please look forward to setting up The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe with the Dynamis recreation of the extinct murderbot civilisation who massacred their way through several planets, their robot antics are so cute! I taught them to dance! Gosh, I should tell Vrtra all about this!

Look, I would genuinely appreciate spending time with the Ultima Thule people, I did all the side quests there, teared up at the Ea because of personal reasons, and I am looking forward to learning more about them. But my point here is how this all feels a teensy bit hypocritical.

...I really want Pandaemonium to redeem how Endwalker has treated the Ancients as little more than a moral punching bag to justify its convoluted plot, while the portrayal of their fall as a deeply human tragedy with no true right or wrong side was such an emotional core of Shadowbringers.
I want the character of Lahabrea to be treated with care and maturity, of a grieving man with massive responsibilities as Speaker of the Convocation of Fourteen and an estranged son (and, as an aside, I still think the Erich-is-our-Lahabrea theory is absurd and is only parroted by people who are apparently unaware of Lahabrea's backstory, and if it turns out to be true, I, shameless Ascian and Ancient enjoyer, am going to eat my goshdanged hood and mask).
I want Erichthonios to be treated with the proper sensible gravity of a young man who was very close to his mother and is probably going to have to deal with... whatever his father has done (it's fine when Severian wants to do a similar thing in the ALC 50 quest though!)... alongside that selfsame father he claims to hate yet (subconsciously?) manifests the mask of in his metamorphosed state.
I want Themis to continue to be treated as an honest to god Giga Chad who knows way more than he lets on, magically hacks his way into an entire floor of a high security prison while my WoL looks on with a look that is clearly saying "oh yes, that's my little Eli, that's my boy", fully intends on saving every warder from this horrible hostage situation with IMPARTIAL BALANCED JUSTICE, and I want the game to drive home the point that in spite of every man-made horror he just witnessed in Pandaemonium, in spite of every interpersonal conflict he most likely dealt with as mediator, this man is going to keep fighting to save his people, warts and all, for twelve thousand years at the cost of his own identity if he has to and never falter in his duty, only stopped by some sentimental fool backstabbing him. Rock me, Elidibus.

Anyway. I have accepted that I am now solely looking forward to the Castlevania crossover, preferably with each new boss getting progressively gayer for Lahabrea, as Ancient Greek God Dracula basically yells "TITS OUT FOR LAHABREA" right in front of Lahabrea's estranged son and Elidibus. Let it be known that I am 100% here for this.

It hasn't come out yet and I am le tired

[ReynTime]

Actually, yeah. While I don't think his death in Ultima Thule would have much impact, his sacrifice in Ahm Araeng would have been the best moment to kill the character if they wanted to. I can't recall Ryne's growth since then being dependent on Thancred's presence either, which means it wouldn't impede her development as a character.
Likewise as much as I'm sick of Y'shtola's flanderization and boring goals the right windows for sacrificing her were missed, so at this point she'd be another one I'd prefer was just sidelined instead. Which of course, won't happen either.

[aveyond-dreams]

As much as I dislike Y'shtola I am grateful that in 6.2 she is back to being a healer rather than calling upon the likes of Alphinaud, whose next appearance I'm terrified of. Can't say I'm looking forward to any involvement of Urianger in the plot again, I'm quite tired of hearing about him and Moenbryda. The sooner we leave the remnants of the scions behind, the better. I have nothing more to say on Thancred other than to agree with what others have stated previously.

I'd be more than willing to accept a series of simpler, self-contained expansion plots with character arcs matching that length and a cast that is regularly swapped out rather than 10 years of the same characters again. Characters shouldn't stick around so long taking up the spotlight for so long that even their own fans get bored of them or in some cases turned off by them completely.



Looking at the trailer again, I still really like the appearance of both Troia Castle and the ruined city that was also shown. The broken statue of the knight performing Passage of Arms was a nice touch, and helps feed more into the dark fantasy of the Void. If only we could've had a whole expansion set in a beautiful, gothic kingdom of darkness but in that same trailer we see dawn tainting its skies.

Fundamentally, I want and seek out fantasy, and found myself quite at home in back in the days of Ishgard, along with Il Mheg and Lakeland. I have no desire to rob this world of its Void after having only recently slain both of its major deities, though if the trade off for that would be a new kingdom to explore then that would be something of a silver lining.

Maybe they'll have us time travel again. Maybe somehow we end up restoring the Void and restoring humanity to it by the end of 6.5. If it gets us to a better setting full of more magic than the Source, so be it. As far as I'm concerned anything is better than staying there, with my favourite locations stripped of what made them unique and my favourite characters unable to join the party. Let us leave behind this world without gods, with more republics than monarchies, and without any current threats for something better.

I'd certainly prefer the 13th, restored or no, to a New World or Meracydia directly based off their real world counterparts at any rate. A fallen realm overtaken by demons, or a kingdom freed from millenia of darkness - both of these are easier to sell to the FF playerbase than depictions that take too much from the Americas or Australia without sufficiently unique additions to them.

[Lauront]

And so... are you guys excited [...]

Good post, and I am sure it will prove prophetic in any criticisms of Pandaemonium should it take the direction which I am concerned they might be taking it in. At least it should spare me having to wait around for 6.4, if so.

[aveyond-dreams]

The continued lack of care with which the antagonist factions of this game have been treated recently isn't to this game's benefit, though I imagine that those who are fans of the protagonists may derive some semblance of a power fantasy from being able to smoothly take care of any threat that the questlines of this game throw at them. With it all being so one-sided you cannot blame the people invested in these factions for expressing their desire to see them done better justice than this and potentially leaving should that not come to fruition.

A well-done tragedy, while it would be a terrible waste of the potential Lahabrea's character has, is still better than such a simplistic manner of writing him. If only he were a Scion then we could rely on the same sort of plot armor they have in order to save his life and allow him to live on to fulfill his role as our Lahabrea in ARR rather than passing the torch to Eric, which would bring with it too many inconsistencies that I will not list here.

If Lahabrea must die in 6.2 then I only hope it is by way of a father nobly sacrificing himself by fusing with the core of whatever evil took hold of Pandaemonium, to be striken down so that his son might live. Painting a picture of him as being evil or arrogant for the way in which he chooses to process his grief would be in poor taste after the already controversial handling of Endwalker's "forge ahead" message in the MSQ. Regardless of his fate - he deserves better than being reduced to just those aspects.

I can't say I'm particularly interested in what appears to be a story where we'll end up slaying Lahabrea in 6.2 with him being painted unreasonably as an irredeemable antagonist while the twins got to keep and mend the relationship with their father - as the Scions have not suffered anything in the way of permanent losses or consequences in recent memory. If that guy ended up living and walking free, then why not Lahabrea as well? Why risk damaging the already established lore of the game in order to try and push forward a story that rather than having a compelling plot that considers a more mature perspective on grief, is one that seeks to prioritize heat-of-the-moment emotions while standing on logic that won't withstand the scrutiny of the playerbase?

[SentioftheHoukai]

I saw someone posit an idea of the Void launching a full scale invasion of Eorzea and even if we don't fix the Void outright immediately, this could also be a good plot hook to send us to Meracydia. What better locale for the legions of Voidsent to strike first and bulwark the majority of their forces than the land they'd already once besieged. Bonus points if they field Shadow Azdaha, nostalgia trauma for the win!

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, I really don't want them to wrap up the Void Ark (Hah! It's a pun!) in the patch content. Hells, even Golbez is by his own admission gearing up for an invasion of the Source.

[ReynTime]

I like Alphinaud enough but he's another character whose arc has been resolved for a while. So if he's not around I guess I also see it as for the best.

Of the voiced Scions the only ones that still have some growing up to do as characters in the MSQ are Estinien (we have barely seen anything of "ex"-Azure Dragoon Estinien in the grand scheme of things), Alisaie... and very unfortunately, G'raha Tia needs the most growing up to do unless he magically goes back to Exarch mode permanently because quite frankly if his calling is just being our #1 obsessive fanboy who wants to go adventuring with us he has no real calling at all yet.

[MikkoAkure]

Unless there's a switcharoo, Lahabrea can't die in Pandaemonium because he alongside Emet-Selch and Elidibus escaped the Sundering.

Him being irredeemably arrogant or evil is still a possibility because he is that way by the time 2.0 comes around. 12,000 years later, he even had a moment where he had to be reminded by Elidibus that the work the Ascians were doing was by Zodiark's will and not for his own. After his death, his own fellow Unsundered called him an idiot, so I don't think he's meant to be a well-liked figure who will be fully empathetic, even among his own people.

[Teraq]

Him being irredeemably arrogant or evil is still a possibility because he is that way by the time 2.0 comes around. 12,000 years later, he even had a moment where he had to be reminded by Elidibus that the work the Ascians were doing was by Zodiark's will and not for his own. After his death, his own fellow Unsundered called him an idiot, so I don't think he's meant to be a well-liked figure who will be fully empathetic, even among his own people.

Never mind my personal opinion on how boring this would be, the relationship the Unsundered had with each other wasn't this simplistic. We know that 12,000 years of being the sole three survivors – that care, anyway – of a planet-wide genocide took their toll on all three of them. From Emet-Selch's POV in the short story describing Lahabrea as a tireless workaholic respected by his peers to Elidibus remembering his praise in his Echo flashback then clutching at his crystal and Igeyorhm's as he is defeated, all signs point to Lahabrea's psyche severely deteriorating over the millenia from the man he once was, so judging his past self on what his 12,000 year old Ascian self was like seems to me a rather hasty judgment. I'd rather go from what we do know about his Ancient self: brilliant, hard-working, appearing cold and professional to his colleagues, cagey about his personal relationships and not very sociable. In fact, I would say he makes me think of Fourchenault, more than anyone else.

As for his fellow Unsundered calling him "an idiot", you'll have to refresh my memory on that. Reckless and brash, yes; burning himself out from overly enthusiastic body hopping, yes; but insulting him? Perhaps Emet-Selch did, because Emet-Selch is a grumpy jerk with a heart of gold whose thoughts tend to be kinder than what comes out of his mouth, tsundere that he is. Then we have the "his will – Zodiark's will" line, which is a pure invention of the English localisation as things often are. All Elidibus says in FR is that Lahabrea's plan seems perfect, but Zodiark's resurrection must come above all. And given the precedent with localisations – EN doing its own weird thing while FR and DE stick much closer to the original JP –, I'd rather trust the latter on that one.

Anyway, I would much rather have a three-dimensional fallible but human jerk rather than the cardboard cutout you are making him out to be. But can I really blame you for having such a take? This is, after all, Endwalker we are talking about, where nuance goes to die and the antagonists are definitely wrong and their society a horrible cryptodystopia. You might as well be perfectly right – and I will hate it all the way.

[RyuDragnier]

Unless there's a switcharoo, Lahabrea can't die in Pandaemonium because he alongside Emet-Selch and Elidibus escaped the Sundering.

Him being irredeemably arrogant or evil is still a possibility because he is that way by the time 2.0 comes around. 12,000 years later, he even had a moment where he had to be reminded by Elidibus that the work the Ascians were doing was by Zodiark's will and not for his own. After his death, his own fellow Unsundered called him an idiot, so I don't think he's meant to be a well-liked figure who will be fully empathetic, even among his own people.

I theorize that his wish to revive Athena has clouded his judgement, and even all those millenia later, he still planned on trying to bring her back. Depending on how Pandaemonium goes, he may end up being somebody who went insane from the revelation that he can't bring her back, or that she decided not to be reborn on the star and accepted oblivion. In other words, I expect us to find out the Lahabrea we fought was a man so broken by his love and grief that him dying was putting him out of his misery.