RIP SAM - no reverts planned for 6.2

[Quyn]

Very good summary, Reese

Some here think only 5 or 7 people care, when there are literally more Anti 6.1 SAM patch feedback videos from many Samurai Content creators then that. Over 145 Threads from over 130 different Samurai's... and Dismissing it to just 5 or 7 people? Talk about not caring... Even dismissing it to just Kaiten when 6.1 is a lot more then just 1 button removal, overused debunked
argument.

No one actually answers the argument point of " Feedback being Ignored is a good thing ". And this is goes beyond Samurai, you can fill in any Job that was ignored with any Skill that was deleted by any outrage that negatively impacted those jobs for plenty of players.

Even the most hardcore Simps, even if they think

• Kaiten is just a button you press everytime, when it's not...
• Auto-Crit's improves Samurai, when it destroys synergy with comps...
• Simplifying the Job is improved gameplay, when it's not...

What is the beneficial argument point for " Having Feedback of passionate players being Ignored, that SE requested of a specific group of Players? "

*Some here* never dismissed all Samurai feedback but you're willingly ignoring that.
It was even mentioned several times by me, that I think criticism is valid and my opinion isn't worth more than that of others. I was placating the questionable reading into the Devs wordings, as well as the proclamation that Samurai is a dead class. Read it again , instead of just inserting your apparent hatred for the devs and wanting to find someone in the community to blame. Its probably why those guys stalked my fflogs, to desperately find something to latch on to, because surely: " anyone who isnt firmly behind the Kaiten grievance army, must be a complete scrub and has no idea what hes talking about. "

I never complained about kaiten to begin with.

And i'll even agree, that ignored player feedback is regrettable and shouldn't occur.

But is the Job ruined at this point ? I expect Square looks at class engagement metrics, just as much as the minor ( compared to player numbers) forum feedback.
I haven't checked the Samurai player numbers closely on fflogs but have they significantly decreased since that patch of removal ?
Square might care more about that, than what we write here.

[CelestiCer]

snip

Oh-ho that's a tall order, to think I ignore what is being written anything " Samurai Related ". " Click Here " if you doubt me, I would even dare you to. Never-the-less, if you haven't missed the LiveLetters. The words of the Dev's were on the 6.1 Samurai Changes...

" Please try it out " and " Give us feedback "
" We did try it " and " We gave our feedback "

• Over 145 Threads in responses on the Western Forums
• Over 8 Anti 6.1 SAM changes youtube videos by content creators
• Over 180 Pages of largely negative feedback on the JP SAM mega thread
• Not to mention the Balance Discord, feel free to join us

And this not even covering JP's Youtube version of NicoNico, it is overwhelmingly negative... and for " 5 months ", their words btw... no response. 0 words. Cold shoulder.

Now the follow-up is to brush like they never asked for the feedback at all, and so far we been right about it since its apparently history repeating when it comes to other jobs having gone through the same treatment.

Thus I see no reason to defend the Dev's careless poor lazy actions, to justify changes that " FIXED NOTHING " only " RUINING GAMEPLAY " that many held dear to improve " NOTHING ".

If you want to refute that on basis of " Please care for the poor wittle feewings of the Dev's ", go right ahead. I do not see any argument point of anything in 6.1 improving Samurai other then Dumbing it down which if that's your cup of tea? great. That's an opinion, that plenty will disagree and agree with.

But I see Zero reasons to defend a company and the Dev's for asking feedback from us Samurai's specifically to only then ignore any response to us. Specially when they will shrug it off like it never happened, all their excuses that were asinine

• Button Bloat
• Action Bloat
• Reducing DPS variance
• Ease of access to the Job

You name it, every single one of them debunked none of them makes sense... to the point they even delay the DRG and AST changes probably due to our backlash.

I want Kaiten back, Tenka Goken not a stupid fart circle, and Auto-Crits being addressed finally and not some BS bulletdodging, and if they can't even fix that?? or revert?? at the bare minimum " i repeat " BARE MINIMUM, response why they did it?

And if their next PatchUpdate as they stated in the Liveletter quote " we will address changes on patches as to why we do it " and then also ignore the changes of 6.1 as we expect them to do? then that says it all. It won't surprise any of us.

[Quyn]

snip.

Buddy, that is a great summary and Im well aware that it isnt just 5-7 people. I was alluding to the 5-7 people, going over board, in this particular thread.
Just as I wrote.

By the way, There are several interviews with Yoshi P, that do explain the removals. I recall digging them out then, it was quite a lot to read.
I recall them boiling down to creating new design space for the jobs future. I'll dig through my older posts, I think I shared it here before.

As for quitting and owing things :
SE doesn't owe us, to design the job exactly by our wishes, either. Its their game, their vision and their product.
They should want to align with the wishes of the type of player majority, they are aiming for, though. No question about that.

Personally, I never felt Kaiten as very engaging and would rather have a more interesting skill instead .
I bolded that one, to stress that I don't have certainty this is actually going to happen. Going by SE's track record, it would make sense but obviously we would all have that next patch, rather than next expansion. That is the intend, I took from the longer interviews I mentioned.

[Quyn]

Oh-ho that's a tall order, to think I ignore what is being written anything " Samurai Related ". " Click Here " if you doubt me, I would even dare you to. Never-the-less, if you haven't missed the LiveLetters. The words of the Dev's were on the 6.1 Samurai Changes...

" Please try it out " and " Give us feedback "
" We did try it " and " We gave our feedback "

• Over 145 Threads in responses on the Western Forums
• Over 8 Anti 6.1 SAM changes youtube videos by content creators
• Over 180 Pages of largely negative feedback on the JP SAM mega thread
• Not to mention the Balance Discord, feel free to join us

And this not even covering JP's Youtube version of NicoNico, it is overwhelmingly negative... and for " 5 months ", their words btw... no response. 0 words. Cold shoulder.

Now the follow-up is to brush like they never asked for the feedback at all, and so far we been right about it since its apparently history repeating when it comes to other jobs having gone through the same treatment.

Thus I see no reason to defend the Dev's careless poor lazy actions, to justify changes that " FIXED NOTHING " only " RUINING GAMEPLAY " that many held dear to improve " NOTHING ".

If you want to refute that on basis of " Please care for the poor wittle feewings of the Dev's ", go right ahead. I do not see any argument point of anything in 6.1 improving Samurai other then Dumbing it down which if that's your cup of tea? great. That's an opinion, that plenty will disagree and agree with.

But I see Zero reasons to defend a company and the Dev's for asking feedback from us Samurai's specifically to only then ignore any response to us. Specially when they will shrug it off like it never happened, all their excuses that were asinine

• Button Bloat
• Action Bloat
• Reducing DPS variance
• Ease of access to the Job

You name it, every single one of them debunked none of them makes sense... to the point they even delay the DRG and AST changes probably due to our backlash.

I want Kaiten back, Tenka Goken not a stupid fart circle, and Auto-Crits being addressed finally and not some BS bulletdodging, and if they can't even fix that?? or revert?? at the bare minimum " i repeat " BARE MINIMUM, response why they did it?

And if their next PatchUpdate as they stated in the Liveletter quote " we will address changes on patches as to why we do it " and then also ignore the changes of 6.1 as we expect them to do? then that says it all. It won't surprise any of us.

Except, you did misrepresent my writings, for whatever reason.

Why you think that im defending the devs, I have no idea. Nor am I "safeguarding devs feelings". The tenka Goken change pissed me off actually, I liked it much more before as well.
I feel indifferent about Kaiten. A cardinal sin, worthy of dog piling and parse shaming, Im well aware. You might say, Im a Kaiten heretic.
Pure blasphemy, prepare the witch fire !

In all seriousness, I always felt empathy for anyone really upset about Kaiten. I don't think it warrants the flaming that some people engage in.
That is all.

Hey look, I found the translations. Im posting them here for completion sake, perhaps you know them already, going by your hobby of building a Kaiten bible :

"Of course there are times where I thought of just flip the table and not change anything...but still...yeah on SAM's guaranteed critical, having that will make SAM's performance jump really high but there are also parts where SAM doesn't see drastic jump as they should...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move, and as for its sub stats, the influence of those stats as the patch moves on will become bigger and bigger and it'll jump the job's performance really high, more so than expected and in reverse the numbers on lesser patch will see the job not jumping as high as the job should....hmmmm...Indeed, it is true that the job's strength and weakness will depend on whether the job's amount of critical dealt and I agree the job relied on that aspect too much, and as for the strength and weakness...yeah that's what it is. I of course do understand that this is part of the fun for the job....and, as for this time, we saw specific actions determined the the composition of DPS and perhaps it leaned way too much so we let some of the weapon skill value loose and we know that if we just increase the potency of weapon skill it'll result in those skills at lower level being too strong, so we adjusted on those values as well by... please refer to the new traits added to SAM located below. So...yeah, this is the adjustments for the job we made for this patch.

And then, I am also well aware of how the critical synergy works well with jobs...and I'm definitely aware, but this is also the overall problem of FFXIV itself, and there are discussions where we should have change that itself to begin with. But we can't be doing everything simultaneously at once so please understand that we want to tackle on that gradually. We do experience cases where it's hard to adjust when a skill with and without critical can cause such a huge disparity...and so we performed this adjustment precisely we care about that so I apologize but I'd like you to please give it a try first."

"However, as for opinions, Of course we do and indeed read those properly, including those that think it's not right to over standardise jobs or comments like "you overdo yourself when it comes to our only trait or the optimization elements we have". We do indeed want to push it for as much as we could, and we are very well aware of people who understand this, as well as people who are already used to what they have now and people who told us not to do anything unnecessary. We really get that but in order for the expansion to continue and for each jobs to continue getting new actions, and whenever we think of trying to maintain the individual characteristics of each job, we found out that this "optimization" is quite tied and connected to the irregular element that was created in the past, and if we don't work to address this we can no longer build upon the existing elements and improve things further, and it'll land us in a situation where we can no longer steer ourselves forward. (edited)

Still, I of course do acknowledge that there are parts where people did not ask for, like Ninja or Samurai..and regarding Samurai's guaranteed Critical, we indeed struggled a lot on the balance adjustments due to the strong ratio fluctuation here, and we really attempted to close the variance gap for as much as we could, and we know this is done for the sake of job balance so I really appreciate if you can understand what we're trying to achieve here. You can send us feedback from there and if the voices of how a job's identity has been taken away too much then these comments will act as a reference to the direction of job balance and improvements we'll be performing in the future. So please, if you do think it matters to you, do send us a feedback regarding the matter.

Well, of course I am very well aware and understand that players will feel lonely and their displeasure will get really big when certain elements of the job they played and got used to for quite a long while now gets changed or removed, so it's not like we're purposely looking away these comments with disapproval or something, but it'll definitely be much appreciated if you can tell us which part you want us to retain or tell us more on which aspects are more favorable to you after touching on the adjustments so that we can take your comment as reference, and from there we'll know where to draw the line. I'll repeat myself that we really did all these adjustments for the sake of player's enjoyment here so I'll be thankful if you all can understand this. (The rest omitted) "

[CelestiCer]

Buddy, that is a great summary and Im well aware that it isnt just 5-7 people. I was alluding to the 5-7 people, going over board, in this particular thread.
Just as I wrote.

By the way, There are several interviews with Yoshi P, that do explain the removals. I recall digging them out then, it was quite a lot to read.
I recall them boiling down to creating new design space for the jobs future. I'll dig through my older posts, I think I shared it here before.

As for quitting and owing things :
SE doesn't owe us, to design the job exactly by our wishes, either. Its their game, their vision and their product.
They should want to align with the wishes of the type of player majority, they are aiming for, though. No question about that.

Personally, I never felt Kaiten as very engaging and would rather have a more interesting skill instead .
I bolded that one, to stress that I don't have certainty this is actually going to happen. Going by SE's track record, it would make sense but obviously we would all have that next patch, rather than next expansion. That is the intend, I took from the longer interviews I mentioned.

That's a great argument and another Excuse " Future Changes ".

Great... so where is it? Where are these great better improved more engaging changes anyone speaks of? Empty promises. The answer is " No where ". Probably down the empty promise barrel with more WHM attacks other then Glare and the SMN removed Dots as well as NIN old trick attack and DRK's Darkarts. If you never felt Kaiten engaging that's great, but it was what held our kenki gauge back from being just a spammable Shinten Gauge here's our engaging Gauge now and let me simplify it...

Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten

As for what they said in every interview, it's future changes. 5 months now nothing, and no response other then

• Button Bloat which is debunked
• Action Bloat which was a presumed mistranslation also debunked
• DPS variance, which never held anyone back to clearing content also a bs excuse
• Job ease of access, again also a bs excuse Samurai never had issues clearing anything

And Future changes excuse that amounts to nothing for 5 months now, well we're going into 6 months soon so again with negative feedback ignored so yeah... the Hopium and Copium is at an all time low.

So as much as you want to misrepresent our feedback in a negative light that it doesn't matter, and misrepresent the Dev's and SE's non Reponses btw as them responding to us and not ignoring feedback? you really need to come up with a better case of " hearsay "

[Quyn]

That's a great argument and another Excuse " Future Changes ".

Great... so where is it? Where are these great better improved more engaging changes anyone speaks of? Empty promises. The answer is " No where ". Probably down the empty promise barrel with more WHM attacks other then Glare and the SMN removed Dots as well as NIN old trick attack and DRK's Darkarts. If you never felt Kaiten engaging that's great, but it was what held our kenki gauge back from being just a spammable Shinten Gauge here's our engaging Gauge now and let me simplify it...

Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten

As for what they said in every interview, it's future changes. 5 months now nothing, and no response other then

• Button Bloat which is debunked
• Action Bloat which was a presumed mistranslation also debunked
• DPS variance, which never held anyone back to clearing content also a bs excuse
• Job ease of access, again also a bs excuse Samurai never had issues clearing anything

And Future changes excuse that amounts to nothing for 5 months now, well we're going into 6 months soon so again with negative feedback ignored so yeah... the Hopium and Copium is at an all time low.

So as much as you want to misrepresent our feedback in a negative light that it doesn't matter, and misrepresent the Dev's and SE's non Reponses btw as them responding to us and not ignoring feedback? you really need to come up with a better case of " hearsay "

It isn't an excuse. Its my personal reasoning for not going crazy over it. Its fine if you dont have trust or patience for that, I understand, life is short.
So go on, keep posting, keep being angry.

[CelestiCer]

It isn't an excuse. Its my personal reasoning for not going crazy over it. Its fine if you dont have trust or patience for that, I understand, life is short.
So go on, keep posting, keep being angry.

You posted a debunked interview where Yoshi admits that big hits is the reason Samurai's gameplay is fun, which he admits to taking away with Auto-Crits which he then falsely admits would increase our DPS performance. That's not true, it just fluctuates less and also destroys Crit Synergy which is a nerf. Not to mention them forgetting to copy paste that to Tenka Goken since they nerfed its potency which remains unaddressed.

So while it can be your personal opinion, it genuinely is the Dev's words - Future changes - which we expected to be addressed way before 5 months of negative feedback yes which they been dodging like the plague, which you seem to ignore again. I'll start honestly viewing your Forum account as an Alt Samurai who doesn't main Samurai and just wants to troll the forums on an Alt account after ignoring valid points and argument points and dismissing them and misrepresenting both sides for over 6 posts... but i'd be tinfoiling right?

It's actually I would say... impressive to be this... lets go with " Special ".

[Quyn]

You posted a debunked interview where Yoshi admits that big hits is the reason Samurai's gameplay is fun, which he admits to taking away with Auto-Crits which he then falsely admits would increase our DPS performance. That's not true, it just fluctuates less and also destroys Crit Synergy which is a nerf. Not to mention them forgetting to copy paste that to Tenka Goken since they nerfed its potency which remains unaddressed.

So while it can be your personal opinion, it genuinely is the Dev's words - Future changes - which we expected to be addressed way before 5 months of negative feedback yes which they been dodging like the plague, which you seem to ignore again. I'll start honestly viewing your Forum account as an Alt Samurai who doesn't main Samurai and just wants to troll the forums on an Alt account after ignoring valid points and argument points and dismissing them and misrepresenting both sides for over 6 posts... but i'd be tinfoiling right?

It's actually I would say... impressive to be this... lets go with " Special ".

Im sorry, howl ong have you been playing ffxiv for ? this comment of "we expect within 5 months" just isnt in line, with somebody who knows, how long such changes take over here.
As mentioned, thats it for me, go pester somebody else with that garbage attitude.

[CelestiCer]

Fine, ill bite. one last time...

I'm not imposing anything on you. I am telling you that going by past experiences, that such changes historically take much longer in FFXIV.
You think this is bad ? Brother, there have been much worse cases of messed up class design or balances, in the past. Kaiten is a joke in comparison.

And that concludes our little exchange. I dont expect you will last in this game but who cares ? Doesnt WoW have an expansion soon ? You'd fit in there very well.

Sister btw. Secondly, I never played WoW and it's visual aesthetics aren't appealing enough for me to ever try. Lastly, you been ignoring again before and after saying your goodbye's to the thread on... read carefully...

SE & DEVS NOT RESPONDING TO THE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK
I made sure it's like really big so you can not miss it, I am generous like that <3

So not about them reverting or fixing which btw would please a lot of players that don't sniff glue... Responding to the Negative feedback they been ignoring for yes 5 months. It's a tiny-bit different then " the Revert argument would take a billion dollar company to long " cause of scarce resources of employees I am totally sure... but response takes 5 months? We even made a meme list on 30 changes and issues they been addressing in between 6.1 Sam negative changes till now.

I'll post them perhaps if you want to go another round of... whatever it is were doing. Honestly this is just entertainment at this point, like playing with food, or P4S

[xAFROx]

Sister btw. Secondly, I never played WoW and it's visual aesthetics aren't appealing enough for me to ever try. Lastly, you been ignoring again before and after saying your goodbye's to the thread on... read carefully...

SE & DEVS NOT RESPONDING TO THE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK
I made sure it's like really big so you can not miss it, I am generous like that <3

So not about them reverting or fixing which btw would please a lot of players that don't sniff glue... Responding to the Negative feedback they been ignoring for yes 5 months. It's a tiny-bit different then " the Revert argument would take a billion dollar company to long " cause of scarce resources of employees I am totally sure... but response takes 5 months? We even made a meme list on 30 changes and issues they been addressing in between 6.1 Sam negative changes till now.

I'll post them perhaps if you want to go another round of... whatever it is were doing. Honestly this is just entertainment at this point, like playing with food, or P4S

Perhaps we can expect an actual detailed explanation in the 6.2 patch notes. I read that was where they said job change explanations and intentions would be elaborated within the notes themselves, so... we might still have a chance. Maybe... I'm hoping.

I know this particular thread came out swinging hard at the devs, but there's no reason for the rest of us to. OP isn't even here anymore if I read that all correctly before.