MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Myrany]

Way to ignore the point.
Of course everyone should do their job. But you know how reality is? That you'll meet bad players - across ALL roles, mind you. Bad tanks that don't mitigate at all, bad dps that don't aoe or don't even get their basic single target rotation right. And these bad players won't improve just because of your "Then prove to ME that YOU are worthy of doing more" attitude because as Forte said: they don't care.
They will never care. No amount of playing the custodian will change that. Yet you actively advocate for healers staying in their completely gutted, sorry state devoid of engaging gameplay and identity because some people in DF hurt you.
All roles have bad players but gutting them beyond measure to drive away the only people that are interested in it and good at it solves nothing.
All this is is a pointless double standard that makes it worse instead of better.

Guess what? Healers are not special snowflakes. IF they don't enjoy the class by all means they should stop playing it. I would say that to anyone in any class. If queues get longer so be it. I have patience I can wait or go back to healing myself. No double standard at all. If someone enters group content they should be doing the job they signed up for to the best of their ability. I don't care what role they queued in Heals, DPS or Tank.

[Supersnow845]

Guess what? Healers are not special snowflakes. IF they don't enjoy the class by all means they should stop playing it. I would say that to anyone in any class. If queues get longer so be it. I have patience I can wait or go back to healing myself. No double standard at all. If someone enters group content they should be doing the job they signed up for to the best of their ability. I don't care what role they queued in Heals, DPS or Tank.

Okay by please explain why healers should be punished for bad healers but other roles shouldn’t, should I be crying to yoshi p that tanks needs their kit gutted when I heal a tank with no mitigation, or that DPS should have their kit gutted when one of them doesn’t use AOE

till you answer that point you are ist dodging round and round her point

[Myrany]

Okay by please explain why healers should be punished for bad healers but other roles shouldn’t, should I be crying to yoshi p that tanks needs their kit gutted when I heal a tank with no mitigation, or that DPS should have their kit gutted when one of them doesn’t use AOE

till you answer that point you are ist dodging round and round her point

And you are ignoring mine. Personally I think no one should be "crying to yoshi p". All I said is when healers start using the kit they have to do the job they signed up for then asking for more will have more traction.

No one is being "punished." Don't like what the job is expected to do then don't do the job. Choice is on the individual. I see no imposed punishment in any of that.

[Seera1024]

And you are ignoring mine. Personally I think no one should be "crying to yoshi p". All I said is when healers start using the kit they have to do the job they signed up for then asking for more will have more traction.

No one is being "punished." Don't like what the job is expected to do then don't do the job. Choice is on the individual. I see no imposed punishment in any of that.

So the players who use their entire kit can't ask for more because 9 out of 40 healers in your recent play through decided they didn't want to heal?

[Myrany]

So the players who use their entire kit can't ask for more because 9 out of 40 healers in your recent play through decided they didn't want to heal?

I am saying don't like it don't play it. Want to DPS only then play a DPS don't queue healer and refuse to heal. Don't enjoy how healers play then don't play healer. As I said above you probably would get more attention from the Devs if there was a sudden and huge healer shortage.

Me I got no sympathy. Don't like it don't play it. That is my opinion.

[Seera1024]

I am saying don't like it don't play it. Want to DPS only then play a DPS don't queue healer and refuse to heal. Don't enjoy how healers play then don't play healer. As I said above you probably would get more attention from the Devs if there was a sudden and huge healer shortage.

Me I got no sympathy. Don't like it don't play it. That is my opinion.

You seem to be conflating two very separate issues.

DPS players queuing as healers for a fast queue and healers wanting to improve their enjoyment in their class.

Healers can ask SE to do things to improve their class just because there are a few rude DPS players who queue as healers for a fast queue.

[Myrany]

You seem to be conflating two very separate issues.

DPS players queuing as healers for a fast queue and healers wanting to improve their enjoyment in their class.

Healers can ask SE to do things to improve their class just because there are a few rude DPS players who queue as healers for a fast queue.

anyone can ask for anything. But do you really think the forums are going to get you anywhere? Do you really think other players will get on board with you if they don't see the job being done properly as is?

The single best thing you could do is quit queing as healer. Create the shortage. Wait for the DPS and Tank head explosion to force the devs to look at why the shortage of healers happened. THAT might just get the job you want done taken care of.

[Jojoya]

You seem to be conflating two very separate issues.

DPS players queuing as healers for a fast queue and healers wanting to improve their enjoyment in their class.

Healers can ask SE to do things to improve their class just because there are a few rude DPS players who queue as healers for a fast queue.

We're going to run into a problem with healers that does not exist with DPS.

What does someone who decides to DPS want to be doing? They want to DPS.

What is the consequence if they don't DPS or DPS poorly? Generally it just takes longer to clear the instance when it comes to content in the MSQ. A party is highly unlikely to fail because a DPS is bad at their job. It can be annoying in such a party but most will shrug and accept it's going to take more time to clear the dungeon. The DPS gets to remain in the party without being accountable for their poor performance.

What does someone who decides to heal want to be doing? Some want to just heal. Some want to switch between healing and DPS as needed. Some want to DPS with only an occasional tossed in as support.

What's the consequence when the healer does the healing portion of their job badly? The party has a much higher chance of failure in MSQ content (depends on experience and skill of the other party member, what level the content is and sometimes what tank job is being used). The party is also a lot more likely to kick a poor healer than they are to kick a poor DPS.

Why should healers have to meet a higher standard to retain their place in a party than DPS has to?

SE does not want groups to be failing in MSQ content. They also don't want players getting kicked from parties just because their skill isn't up to a random standard set by far more experienced players. And so the healing jobs get designed to make healing more approachable in MSQ content by the average player.

I don't think it's a good solution to either problem but it does mostly solve them. The party is less likely to fail if it has an inexperienced (or uncooperative) healer. The healer is less likely to be noticed and be kicked from the party when the group is getting through the dungeon without much trouble.

The question becomes is it creating new problems that are more troublesome for SE to solve (a net decrease in the number of players willing to queue as healer) and if there are better solutions that could be used to solve the original concerns (would changing healing toolkits or encounter design make things more engaging for experienced healers without overwhelming the inexperienced healer).

I do mean the trust system, yes, since they are retrofitting all older MSQ content to be trust-compatible and my understanding is this will also apply to future stuff given Yoshi's aspiration to allow the game's main story to be playable as a single player, as an option. Hence implementing such options within that framework. It'd provide more flexibility for how they design fights in the MSQ if they could provide an option for players who simply want to clear without much trouble an easy option that can be selected via the trust system (with reduced rewards or something after the first clear.) Similarly, as you mention, you could do harder modes too without too much hassle.



Unfortunately those "petabytes of statistics" don't seem to stop SE from making errors - sometimes abysmal ones. But like Hyu mentioned, I am referring to the extension of the trust system to MSQ dungeons/trials.



We'll see how those turn out in practice. I'm glad they made the step of adding them, at least.



Yeah, by "future stuff" I mean future MSQ content, i.e. the dungeons and trials linked to it. I don't recall them discussing what they'll be doing with MSQ content in future patches (they'd said their aim was to retrofit older stuff by 7.0 and onwards), but given that it is an aspiration of Yoshi's to make this a feature of the game, I'd expect it will apply to future MSQ content too and will be designed to be ready for this. I agree with your sentiment, either way.

Does this mean that you're also suggesting that players should be able to complete roulettes using Duty Support/Trust if you feel that MSQ difficulty should be increased since those are an option? Otherwise they're still going to be part of the roulette queues since that's the end game for many of them as the other poster pointed out.

We're waaaaaay past this "Well healers need to learn to do their PRiMArY RoLe" hokum. Primary role is healing? Please. It needs to happen maybe once or twice a minute in a -mediocre- party in content below Savage.

I feel like you've never been part of a truly mediocre party or you have a warped idea of what the average skill level of the player base is.

[Rilifane]

Guess what? Healers are not special snowflakes. IF they don't enjoy the class by all means they should stop playing it. I would say that to anyone in any class. If queues get longer so be it. I have patience I can wait or go back to healing myself. No double standard at all. If someone enters group content they should be doing the job they signed up for to the best of their ability. I don't care what role they queued in Heals, DPS or Tank.

Healers aren't but if someone expects that an entire role gets and stays gutted despite the majority evidently doing their job (31 of 40, remember?) because some couldn't prove to them that they are worthy of engaging gameplay, that would make that person win the special snowflake award.

While also conveniently ignoring that every role without exception has its bad players and will always have them.
You failed to explain why healers should be gutted because of a couple of bad players while tanks and dps shouldn't.
And you know this is called?
A double standard.

[Myrany]

Healers aren't but if someone expects that an entire role gets and stays gutted despite the majority evidently doing their job (31 of 40, remember?) because some couldn't prove to them that they are worthy of engaging gameplay, that would make that person win the special snowflake award.

While also conveniently ignoring that every role without exception has its bad players and will always have them.
You failed to explain why healers should be gutted because of a couple of bad players while tanks and dps shouldn't.
And you know this is called?
A double standard.

I never said that healers should be gutted. I never said anyone should be. I said don't like how it is don't play it. Otherwise do the job you signed up for. Same is true for any role.

EDIT: Do you seriously think if Yoshi P sees a sudden huge healer shortage he won't look into why it happened?