MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Semirhage]

anyone can ask for anything. But do you really think the forums are going to get you anywhere? Do you really think other players will get on board with you if they don't see the job being done properly as is?

The single best thing you could do is quit queing as healer. Create the shortage. Wait for the DPS and Tank head explosion to force the devs to look at why the shortage of healers happened. THAT might just get the job you want done taken care of.

Already quit healing at the end of Stormblood. Changed nothing. The design direction is still in a straight nosedive. Healers in this game are the worst designed I've ever seen them in a video game.

And yet we have people looking at that horrible design and going "you need to prove that you're worthy of being designed well, HeALeRs SHoULd bE heaLiNg". Lovely.

[Seera1024]

anyone can ask for anything. But do you really think the forums are going to get you anywhere? Do you really think other players will get on board with you if they don't see the job being done properly as is?

The single best thing you could do is quit queing as healer. Create the shortage. Wait for the DPS and Tank head explosion to force the devs to look at why the shortage of healers happened. THAT might just get the job you want done taken care of.

But without feedback, how is SE supposed to know what to fix? How are they supposed to know why the healers stopped playing healers?

One person alone on a forum? No. But you get multiple people saying the same thing? Then feedback could get passed up the chain and make it into the game. Does everything that makes it way up to SE make it into the game? No. But that's because not everything is a right fit for the game. And sometimes feedback comes in from two groups that are complete opposites. Like the feedback on the roleplay quests where we play other characters. Some want more of them. Some want every single one currently in the game taken out. Both groups won't ever be happy at the same time.

[Lauront]

I think Lauront was proposing these difficulty options be added to the Trust versions only, since he mentions Trust dungeons. So this would have zero effect on the roulettes.

I think there would be a way to add this without having to put too much time into it. Instances can already give you Super Echo, so perhaps just apply the reverse to mobs where now they have the buff. Obviously not as ridiculous as the 200% or 300% or whatever the Super Echo buff is, but kind of like how Gloom in deep dungeons give all mobs haste, vuln downs, and damage up.

I do mean the trust system, yes, since they are retrofitting all older MSQ content to be trust-compatible and my understanding is this will also apply to future stuff given Yoshi's aspiration to allow the game's main story to be playable as a single player, as an option. Hence implementing such options within that framework. It'd provide more flexibility for how they design fights in the MSQ if they could provide an option for players who simply want to clear without much trouble an easy option that can be selected via the trust system (with reduced rewards or something after the first clear.) Similarly, as you mention, you could do harder modes too without too much hassle.

The devs have made their stance on MSQ clear; it'll always be easy, no if's and or buts. Asking for changes is literally a waste of anyone's energy since any feedback regarding it will likely go straight into the bin when they have petabytes of statistics clearly stating their current direction is correct due to the changing landscape of the video game industry.

Unfortunately those "petabytes of statistics" don't seem to stop SE from making errors - sometimes abysmal ones. But like Hyu mentioned, I am referring to the extension of the trust system to MSQ dungeons/trials.

Your energy is better directed at asking for more optional content with modular difficulty unrelated to the MSQ in any way, like the Criterion dungeons they're working on.

We'll see how those turn out in practice. I'm glad they made the step of adding them, at least.

It does seem to be limited, at least currently, to duties required to progress through the MSQ.

While I much prefer the Trust system when running dungeons, this is an MMO and completely removing the need to group up with other players would hurt the game. But I understand putting in place systems to make sure players can progress the story with as few requirements for other players as possible.

Yeah, by "future stuff" I mean future MSQ content, i.e. the dungeons and trials linked to it. I don't recall them discussing what they'll be doing with MSQ content in future patches (they'd said their aim was to retrofit older stuff by 7.0 and onwards), but given that it is an aspiration of Yoshi's to make this a feature of the game, I'd expect it will apply to future MSQ content too and will be designed to be ready for this. I agree with your sentiment, either way.

[AwesomeJr44]

EDIT: Do you seriously think if Yoshi P sees a sudden huge healer shortage he won't look into why it happened?

No, Yoshi and the rest of the dev team will not listen to anyone and just assume that the reason they think people aren't healing is the correct one and make changes with that mindset even if it makes the problem worse. They've proven time and time again that they don't care what anyone in the community thinks unless it lines up with what they want to implement.

Example: Kaiten on Samurai

[AmiableApkallu]

It's weird that so many healers rail at YoshiP's comments when there is truth to them. The healer role exists basically to cover the butts of the players who like to stand in fire.

When am I most engaged as a healer? When I'm playing with a group of fair to bad players. I have to actually heal. When am I least engaged as a healer? When I'm playing with a group that knows what they're doing and can execute mechanics correctly. I end up nothing more than green DPS.

I think there are two points to be made here:

1. The MSQ is most likely designed to be cleared by players of a certain, minimal level of skill; it's designed to accommodate some level of mistakes. That includes the healers themselves.

2. Healers are the one role whose experience currently varies widely based on the unpredictable nature of the party they get put in.

Personally, I play for that unpredictability, so I'd be interested in seeing the MSQ and other content embrace it: More mechanics, more variations to those mechanics, none of them according to a fixed script. (Scripted phase changes are fine. I waffle back and forth on scripted "teach the mechanics" sequences.)

I don't think that would affect the difficulty of the MSQ, because no one relies on going into it with a fixed plan based on predictable fights, but it might make content on the whole a little more engaging.

[Seera1024]

I do mean the trust system, yes, since they are retrofitting all older MSQ content to be trust-compatible and my understanding is this will also apply to future stuff given Yoshi's aspiration to allow the game to be played as a single player.

It does seem to be limited, at least currently, to duties required to progress through the MSQ.

While I much prefer the Trust system when running dungeons, this is an MMO and completely removing the need to group up with other players would hurt the game. But I understand putting in place systems to make sure players can progress the story with as few requirements for other players as possible.

[Myrany]

Already quit healing at the end of Stormblood. Changed nothing. The design direction is still in a straight nosedive. Healers in this game are the worst designed I've ever seen them in a video game.

And yet we have people looking at that horrible design and going "you need to prove that you're worthy of being designed well, HeALeRs SHoULd bE heaLiNg". Lovely.

Lots of classes are not designed well. I loved Summoner in Stormblood. Hated it ever since.

Good for you for quitting playing a healing class when you didn't like it. Much as I did with Summoner. Get enough other healers on board and the devs might notice.

If you go into a dungeon as a healer role then yes your primary job should be to keep the party alive. Whatever DPS you can do is gravy. If healers are failing at the primary job then yeah there are many people who will look at it and say why make the situation worse than it already is for healers not healing. It is common sense.

[Seera1024]

I think there are two points to be made here:

1. The MSQ is most likely designed to be cleared by players of a certain, minimal level of skill; it's designed to accommodate some level of mistakes. That includes the healers themselves.

2. Healers are the one role whose experience currently varies widely based on the unpredictable nature of the party they get put in.

Personally, I play for that unpredictability, so I'd be interested in seeing the MSQ and other content embrace it: More mechanics, more variations to those mechanics, none of them according to a fixed script. (Scripted phase changes are fine. I waffle back and forth on scripted "teach the mechanics" sequences.)

I don't think that would affect the difficulty of the MSQ, because no one relies on going into it with a fixed plan based on predictable fights, but it might make content on the whole a little more engaging.

I think more of a balancing act on this would be needed. Like the first couple of bosses are more predictable and teach mechanics used in the final boss which operates more randomly (they probably can't go too random for MSQ dungeons due to the Trust/Duty Support AI needing to be able to do it), especially in optional content.

[Semirhage]

Lots of classes are not designed well. I loved Summoner in Stormblood. Hated it ever since.

Good for you for quitting playing a healing class when you didn't like it. Much as I did with Summoner. Get enough other healers on board and the devs might notice.

If you go into a dungeon as a healer role then yes your primary job should be to keep the party alive. Whatever DPS you can do is gravy. If healers are failing at the primary job then yeah there are many people who will look at it and say why make the situation worse than it already is for healers not healing. It is common sense.

I'd say "primary role" is a stretch. I still occasionally drop into a roulette as a healer to show a friend what I'm talking about. Healing in this game is so hilariously easy that I've regularly rolled into roulettes and not touched a single healing GCD. Not one. The party remained alive, nobody was in danger, and every single spell cast was Dia or Glare (or Misery if I'm in that level range and dumped lilies between pulls). I ran Vanaspati while leveling Scholar and got a WAR who point blank asked me not to heal. So I didn't. Not even Fairy abilities, not even off-GCDs. And we made it through the dungeon without anyone even close to dying.

We're waaaaaay past this "Well healers need to learn to do their PRiMArY RoLe" hokum. Primary role is healing? Please. It needs to happen maybe once or twice a minute in a -mediocre- party in content below Savage.

[Jojoya]

You seem to be conflating two very separate issues.

DPS players queuing as healers for a fast queue and healers wanting to improve their enjoyment in their class.

Healers can ask SE to do things to improve their class just because there are a few rude DPS players who queue as healers for a fast queue.

We're going to run into a problem with healers that does not exist with DPS.

What does someone who decides to DPS want to be doing? They want to DPS.

What is the consequence if they don't DPS or DPS poorly? Generally it just takes longer to clear the instance when it comes to content in the MSQ. A party is highly unlikely to fail because a DPS is bad at their job. It can be annoying in such a party but most will shrug and accept it's going to take more time to clear the dungeon. The DPS gets to remain in the party without being accountable for their poor performance.

What does someone who decides to heal want to be doing? Some want to just heal. Some want to switch between healing and DPS as needed. Some want to DPS with only an occasional tossed in as support.

What's the consequence when the healer does the healing portion of their job badly? The party has a much higher chance of failure in MSQ content (depends on experience and skill of the other party member, what level the content is and sometimes what tank job is being used). The party is also a lot more likely to kick a poor healer than they are to kick a poor DPS.

Why should healers have to meet a higher standard to retain their place in a party than DPS has to?

SE does not want groups to be failing in MSQ content. They also don't want players getting kicked from parties just because their skill isn't up to a random standard set by far more experienced players. And so the healing jobs get designed to make healing more approachable in MSQ content by the average player.

I don't think it's a good solution to either problem but it does mostly solve them. The party is less likely to fail if it has an inexperienced (or uncooperative) healer. The healer is less likely to be noticed and be kicked from the party when the group is getting through the dungeon without much trouble.

The question becomes is it creating new problems that are more troublesome for SE to solve (a net decrease in the number of players willing to queue as healer) and if there are better solutions that could be used to solve the original concerns (would changing healing toolkits or encounter design make things more engaging for experienced healers without overwhelming the inexperienced healer).

I do mean the trust system, yes, since they are retrofitting all older MSQ content to be trust-compatible and my understanding is this will also apply to future stuff given Yoshi's aspiration to allow the game's main story to be playable as a single player, as an option. Hence implementing such options within that framework. It'd provide more flexibility for how they design fights in the MSQ if they could provide an option for players who simply want to clear without much trouble an easy option that can be selected via the trust system (with reduced rewards or something after the first clear.) Similarly, as you mention, you could do harder modes too without too much hassle.



Unfortunately those "petabytes of statistics" don't seem to stop SE from making errors - sometimes abysmal ones. But like Hyu mentioned, I am referring to the extension of the trust system to MSQ dungeons/trials.



We'll see how those turn out in practice. I'm glad they made the step of adding them, at least.



Yeah, by "future stuff" I mean future MSQ content, i.e. the dungeons and trials linked to it. I don't recall them discussing what they'll be doing with MSQ content in future patches (they'd said their aim was to retrofit older stuff by 7.0 and onwards), but given that it is an aspiration of Yoshi's to make this a feature of the game, I'd expect it will apply to future MSQ content too and will be designed to be ready for this. I agree with your sentiment, either way.

Does this mean that you're also suggesting that players should be able to complete roulettes using Duty Support/Trust if you feel that MSQ difficulty should be increased since those are an option? Otherwise they're still going to be part of the roulette queues since that's the end game for many of them as the other poster pointed out.

We're waaaaaay past this "Well healers need to learn to do their PRiMArY RoLe" hokum. Primary role is healing? Please. It needs to happen maybe once or twice a minute in a -mediocre- party in content below Savage.

I feel like you've never been part of a truly mediocre party or you have a warped idea of what the average skill level of the player base is.