What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

To me, the most telling scene with Venat is when an admirer of hers gleefully asks her when she plans to return to the star, Venat politely gives her a non-answer, and then confesses to the WOL that she actually has NO plans to ever do it, because she sees her personal mission as neverending. Venat's demeanor there gave me impressions of a real-world woman with a successful career being asked when she plans to get married, retired and have a baby, and withholding the urge to say she doesn't want to do any of those things, because their society values it so highly. It gave me the impression that Venat had her dissatisfaction or unease about aspects of Ancient society, but didn't know how to go about changing things without hurting peoples' feelings. Then, when Hermes makes his "challenge", and the Final Days comes, she's disappointed because her people didn't make the changes she expected on their own.

The problem with this, of course, is that the writers intended for the players to see the Ancients as "scary", where they defined scary as "not like us". The writers, apparently, thought that the Ancients having basically no struggles whatsoever, and having little reaction to death as long as it serves a "purpose" (for example, killing the petaludas to make some robes and being excited about others of their own returning to the star) would make them seem cold and alien enough that the players would agree that modern day spoken races are an overall "upgrade". The Ancients were intended to be portrayed as detached and in denial, but (in my opinion) they failed to show that during Elpis. They tried to double down on it by showing irrational strawman version of the Ancients during the Sundering scene, but even that doesn't work because, following the Kairos incident, Venat herself had all the keys in her hand to prevent things from coming to that and she did nothing.

As I've said before with friends and on this forum, approaching the text from a Watsonian perspective, pretty much the only way you can make Venat's character coherent is understanding she's very much like Hermes - had a pre-existing dissatisfaction and unease with Ancient society to begin with, then had "confirmation" of those beliefs through her acquaintance to the WoL and Meteion's report. Venat's response to Hermes's test not being "no, we can't let this happen! We have to save as many as possible!" but rather "Yes, we must rise to be equal to his challenge, bring it on" is very telling. She completely agrees with him that "people must prove they're worthy to exist" and "the Ancients have to prove this by reacting in the Correct way to overwhelming despair (so I will let the Overwhelming Despair play out and observe them like bugs under a microscope)."

The other aspect I find utterly baffling in regards to the approach to the Ancients being "scary" is - look at the world we live in, and actually look at the Sundered world. It's hilarious that they actually expected us to be outraged over the Ancients being willing to "take life" when they see it as justified - let alone the demonstrations of this being butterflies and an out-of-control murder wolf. Meanwhile, here I am, checking my leatherbound planner, using my communication technology whose materials are almost certainly produced in highly unethical and inhumane ways, thinking about what meat I want to unnecessarily and indulgently consume for my evening meal later on. If a spider dares show its face while I am doing this, I will crush it, for it does not belong in the perfect space I want in my room. And I consider myself a relatively harmless, benign person who doesn't actually engage in violent crime, hunting for sport, actively participating in or beginning wars, etc. Either they didn't think this through at all, or this premise is coming from an incredibly sheltered place, or both. The only way I can make any sense of people uncritically going along with these premises is if they were pre-disposed to look for any reason to justify the demise of the Ancients, and pin the blame for their slaughter as "their own fault."

Figuring that people would near-universally see a peaceful, consensual death (in a universe where reincarnation is a fact and the people who practice this are ageless) would also be horrifying and scary is also something I file under "are you just really, overwhelmingly naive here or"

[CrownySuccubus]

The other aspect I find utterly baffling in regards to the approach to the Ancients being "scary" is - look at the world we live in, and actually look at the Sundered world. It's hilarious that they actually expected us to be outraged over the Ancients being willing to "take life" when they see it as justified - let alone the demonstrations of this being butterflies and an out-of-control murder wolf. Meanwhile, here I am, checking my leatherbound planner, using my communication technology whose materials are almost certainly produced in highly unethical and inhumane ways, thinking about what meat I want to unnecessarily and indulgently consume for my evening meal later on. If a spider dares show its face while I am doing this, I will crush it, for it does not belong in the perfect space I want in my room. And I consider myself a relatively harmless, benign person who doesn't actually engage in violent crime, hunting for sport, actively participating in or beginning wars, etc. Either they didn't think this through at all, or this premise is coming from an incredibly sheltered place, or both. The only way I can make any sense of people uncritically going along with these premises is if they were pre-disposed to look for any reason to justify the demise of the Ancients, and pin the blame for their slaughter as "their own fault."

Yeah, that's what made the scene with the petaluda, where the game godmods our WOL into being "shocked" about Hyth's actions, so weird. These quotes put it in better words than I can:

This was so strange to me as well, I remember thinking "...OK? Thanks for the robe, man!" It was so awkward that this was clearly meant to be a moment where the writers assumed I'd be horrifically offended; but I wasn't at all, nor did I think that my character, who murders animals all of the time for FUN and PROFIT would be rattled in any way. She definitely would not be be judging others for it. I was also obviously supposed to be utterly offended at being called a "thing" but again, who the hell cares? To them I was a creature unlike any they had ever seen before. I look nothing like them or the humans they know, not even like any familiars they know, so there's no reason for them to see me as anything but an unusual entity. The attempts to move me to Twitter levels of outrage over the way the Ancients viewed life were clumsy as shit.

I mean I was doing the sidequests on a reaper, with an avatar sidekick that devours the souls of beings for fuel, and did the main quests with a relic weapon forged from crystallised misery, having routinely partaken in the outdoors slaughterfests known as fates. At this point, if they're expecting me to take the character's "shock" seriously, it just paints them as delusional.

Right? "Pardon me, my good fellows, I must take my leave as apparently there is an S-Rank beast in this zone that needs to be attacked and murdered for no real reason AND I'd like to get the orchestration roll for Elpis so I'll need to follow that up with the mass slaughter of every animal that I find within these pink spots on my map. You guys are so cruel to arcane entities though, btw, do better. Cheerio!"

My lvl 90 LTW WoL: "Wow, very efficient! Cutting out the middleman."

[Brinne]

When I was going through Elpis, my response to almost all of the intended "scary" stuff was genuinely: oh gosh, this is wonderful, what a massive upgrade compared to the world we live in now! Imagine taking life only when there's a concrete purpose or out of a sense of greater responsibility of stewardship to the planet, as opposed to arbitrary killing for pleasure, curiosity, or convenience, like what happens every single day on a mass scale here. Yes, there are caveats, but "death is expected to have some sort of justification in the case of animals and be fully consensual in the case of people" sounds downright idyllic from the perspective of living on good old modern Earth. My reaction to the whole "return to the Star" ritual as described was also legitimately: "Oh, how interesting. This sounds really wonderful, actually." I realize it's a complicated issue with a lot of varied and valid perspectives, but I generally am supportive of end-of-life care, so I honestly just took it as being exactly that.

That's not to say the Ancients didn't have room for improvement or were literally perfect or flawless. As bad as Hermes was, I did think that in general he had a valid point to raise in terms of being more sensitive and compassionate towards the fear of the creations of being killed - that perhaps there was a way to do it more humanely or with more deliberation (with the caveat that the Ancients were established to be far more humane in their euthanizations already than, again, our world.) Some of the sidequests demonstrated that the Ancients at the point they were then, as a whole, (because this was demonstrated to us through other Ancients trying to make those around them see otherwise) were a bit short-sighted in not seeing how a flawed creation could lead to greater innovation and something greater in the long run. (Of course, this is undermined by how downright eager and excited we also see them get most of the time when shown alternative perspectives through us.) And I can even see the end-of-life ritual hypothetically eventually pushing to that place where people feel pressured and uncomfortable to it on a troubling scale - but the story, for me, failed to establish their world as we saw it as going that far either in a way that would even begin to make me think "scary." It's like me, being used to my cheap-ass diet, poor cooking skills, and the sloppy fried rice I make almost every night, looking at a world-renowned chef's work and going loftily full "your work is fundamentally flawed and is best served as an example of The Path One Must Not Go Down." Talk about getting ahead of yourself...?

And then there's how utterly confused the different tenors of the message are - being mortal and having short, fleeting lives struggling for meaning is good, which necessarily means being immortal is comparatively bad (except when it isn't: see the dragons), but then the immortals embracing a peaceful cycle of death is also bad, and--ah yes, there isn't actually a coherent or clear moral threadline here, the actual founding point of all of this is Ancients Bad and Were Doomed. They're bad if they embrace death and they're bad if they refuse to embrace death. Wars are bad but the Ancients were so peaceful that they're Also Bad, we must Bring Back War.

Venat being uncomfortable with people hyping up her death is perfectly valid, on her part, as an individual - and it sucks for her that she is made to feel uncomfortable, though obviously it's out of well-meaning insensitive ignorance, rather than anything like malice. If she doesn't want to return to the Star, no one should trouble her about it. But Venat's problem - yet another thing you can commonly find among real people and in real discourse - is assuming that because she doesn't like something or is uncomfortable with it, it must be objectively bad and lead to bad things and people who feel differently from her are on the "wrong path" and need her guidance to correct. The issue as presented doesn't have the nuance of "we should be careful about not pressuring people to Return if they don't wish to, or codifying a weird cultural expectation about it," it's that "Venat doesn't want to return, no one should want to return, that is fundamentally Wrong." In this way, in a pure Watsonian vacuum, I find her sort of fascinating. Any inch of Doylism, though, and it becomes downright infuriating. Of course I understand what the story is trying to do and communicate, but again, the most generous evaluation I can give for the writing behind it is "you must be incredibly, unbelievable naive to actually think this would sell."

[MikkoAkure]

Yeah, that's what made the scene with the petaluda, where the game godmods our WOL into being "shocked" about Hyth's actions, so weird. These quotes put it in better words than I can:

I went over this a few months ago, but I feel like everyone is remembering this scene wrong. There wasn't a "shocked" moment. Our responses were "Oh turn living beings into clothing? Just like that?" and "Won't someone be angry with us for using those creatures?" both responses are given with a blank face and no shock.

I don't think the writers intended for us to go "hmm" there, but at the point where they were making flying wolves that can breathe fire for no better reason than that they could.

[Brinne]

I went over this a few months ago, but I feel like everyone is remembering this scene wrong. There wasn't a "shocked" moment. Our responses were "Oh turn living beings into clothing? Just like that?" and "Won't someone be angry with us for using those creatures?" both responses are given with a blank face and no shock.

I don't think the writers intended for us to go "hmm" there, but at the point where they were making flying wolves that can breathe fire for no better reason than that they could.

In the greater context of the story, no, I'd say it's pretty obvious that the scene with the butterflies is meant to be a discomfort point in the larger picture painted of the Ancients being "scary."

Also, re: flying wolves - you can go back and forth on the nuances of this based on the limited presentation we were given, but the works of creation we see on Elpis are to help create and support a robust ecosystem, and the entire purpose of Elpis itself is to be responsible and make sure you don't just go around unleashing on-a-whim creations that would ultimately do harm or have poor quality of life. Saying "they were making flying wolves for no better reason than they could" is really reductive, and feels like another part of "Ancients are Wrong no matter what." Are they being irresponsible in their use of Creation magic, silly people playing at gods making fire wolves and walking sharks, or are they too responsible and stringent, hence the process in Elpis that sometimes involve Euthanization to make sure creations can't do greater harm - and are reflective of a society that's too conformist? Well, either way, the most pressing, urgent point is that they're Wrong, okay?

And again, this concern just seems really absurd to me to point and condemn about from the context of our own world. People kill animals for leather and meat for objectively completely unnecessary clothing items, accessories, and dishes for no reason "other than they can" or "it seems cool and interesting." People kill just because they think the process of hunting and killing is fun. Even in the worst reading of the Ancients' practices in this regard, the best I can come up with is, "well, probably not great, but definitely still better than what we have now, overall."

As I've mentioned before, the main problem with Endwalker and, indeed ones that a lot of media fall into both Eastern and Western, is falling into "Humanity Worship", whereby humans (or whatever creatures are similar enough to them) are presented as being way more special than any other creatures, with the preservation or cultivation of humanity being a worthy end in and of itself.

I truly do appreciate that EW obviously had benevolent intent in "uplifting and cheering on the player" in a time when so many of us are struggling, but the way they went about it - basically one-sided "YOU'RE NUMBER ONE! YOU'RE NUMBER ONE! BETTER THAN ALL THE REST!" is, bluntly, probably the most juvenile and most self-absorbed way possible to go about it. But realizing the intent was well-meaning, just not remotely well thought-out (or so I continue to hope), is exactly why I'm willing to post and talk about it and provide feedback rather than just "nope, values too dissonant from mine, I'm out."

[MikkoAkure]

Also, re: flying wolves - you can go back and forth on the nuances of this based on the limited presentation we were given, but the works of creation we see on Elpis are to help create and support a robust ecosystem, and the entire purpose of Elpis itself is to be responsible and make sure you don't just go around unleashing on-a-whim creations that would ultimately do harm or have poor quality of life. Saying "they were making flying wolves for no better reason than they could" is really reductive, and feels like another part of "Ancients are Wrong no matter what." Are they being irresponsible in their use of Creation magic, silly people playing at gods making fire wolves and walking sharks, or are they too responsible and stringent, hence the process in Elpis that sometimes involve Euthanization to make sure creations can't do greater harm - and are reflective of a society that's too conformist? Well, either way, the most pressing, urgent point is that they're Wrong, okay?

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them. Others are actively making the world a better place and creating things that actively fit in the world as a whole like it was intended. Others like one Ancient in a FATE sends us against a bunch of strong creations because he thinks we're a disposable familiar that happens to be strong and he wants to make something strong with no other purpose given. The only reason why you would need to create monsters to fill your ecosystem is because you've created monsters already and it becomes a sort of arms race in order to keep everything balanced. Elpis is also dangerous enough where it's been mentioned that Ancients have been injured or killed so it's not all sunshine and roses and then Pandaemonium, which is a league of its own.

Either way, I thought Elpis was much stronger on its characterizations of Ancients when it stepped away from the monster creating stuff, which ends up cheapening a lot of the pre-existing world anyway since it turns out a lot of the monsters we've encountered in the world and even possibly the Lupin just boil down to "a bored Ancient made it" instead of simply being a fantasy world full of monsters and it takes a bit of the sparkle out when stuff like this ends up getting explained.

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

I don't agree, simply for this question: why bring attention to it in the first place?

I'd like to think the writers are better than that considering all the destruction we've left behind that the existence of the Leatherworkers' Guild. I just figured it was there to introduce us to the concept of reducing creatures into aether, which comes up later, and to give us a reason to kill X amount of things.

[Brinne]

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them. Others are actively making the world a better place and creating things that actively fit in the world as a whole like it was intended. Others like one Ancient in a FATE sends us against a bunch of strong creations because he thinks we're a disposable familiar that happens to be strong and he wants to make something strong with no other purpose given. The only reason why you would need to create monsters to fill your ecosystem is because you've created monsters already and it becomes a sort of arms race in order to keep everything balanced. Elpis is also dangerous enough where it's been mentioned that Ancients have been injured or killed so it's not all sunshine and roses and then Pandaemonium, which is a league of its own.

That was Hythlodaeus, not Venat, for what it's worth!

Ecosystems are complicated, and again, the purpose of Elpis is to thoroughly test to see how a creation could fit into and contribute to an ecosystem. The Ancients are human, and therefore get excited about trendy stuff the way we modern humans get excited about trendy clothes or trendy food, and thus go on killing and/or colonizing sprees. This doesn't make them bad, it makes them people - and their society as a whole is responsible enough to recognize that and thus have a process to make sure as little harm as possible is done. Not to mention, even if you WANT to criticize the Ancients for stuff like that FATE series or the creation of Behemoth, that's immediately undermined because the Warrior of Light is happy to participate and help the Ancients in that process. "Hm, okay, I'll give this guy feedback about his predator creation to end up with a Meteor-slinging Behemoth. Also this guy is bad and wrong for making Behemoth (which I actively helped him with)."

Also, what you mentioned about "it's established that people are hurt and killed in Elpis" is yet another funny thing, because the story simultaneously tries to argue that the Ancients were selfish and spoiled because they didn't deal with hardship or being hurt. Except when they did. Ancients Are Wrong No Matter What continues to be the fundamental baseline.

Hell, not to mention, shouldn't we be cheering on the Ancients, given Endwalker's purported values, for creating a cycle of work that continues to necessitate other work? We don't want them to actually reach a state of a perfected, balanced ecosystem, become stagnant, and lose purpose, right? Wait, no, but that's bad too, wait--

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

Three individuals were like this - two of which are singled out for being extremely weird Ancients who felt dissonant from the values of most other Ancients, and the third who underwent an insane level of trauma that would be incomprehensible for basically any of us. Extrapolating three individuals all noted to be very unusual, or going through extreme circumstances, as reflecting an entire race of people immediately becomes problematic and ridiculous, especially because we see it demonstrated and repeated that as far as overt cultural values, trying to avoid arrogance and hubris is something they actually prioritize. And this is yet another thing that honestly just makes me go "man, wish we had what they have." Imagine if our humanity actually felt a similar sense of responsibility to collectively work for the good of mankind and for the planet as a whole. I might not be melting in this horrible summer heat and whining constantly at anyone who will listen about how The Sun Was A Mistake.

[Teraq]

I heavy-breathe in awe when Brinne does her Brinne thing.

Ancients Are Wrong No Matter What continues to be the fundamental baseline.

Yyyyep. No way around it I'm afraid! And remember, when all else fails, there's always Dynamis, the good old Power Of God And Anime that simply does not apply to Ancients. Never mind that they could make Dynamis-capable creations, or that one has been right here in Elpis for centuries for anyone to study and refine – Endwalker just really, really wants you to know that ANCIENTS COULD NEVER WIN, SO DROP IT, PLEASE! They were too perfect so they deserved to die, but they were also not perfect enough so they did not deserve to be brought back. They never suffered (which is Very Bad), except when they routinely did, as evidenced by the numerous mentions of physical injury, the existence of the Seats of Azem, Pashtarot and Elidibus, and Lahabrea's joyous little family. Their collectivist and conformist society was very, very bad and no good, but Hermes and Venat's individuality clearly made them the poster boy and girl for Ancients, horrible people that they were, making individual judgment by their lonesome. And in this context, how could we forget that they took their most important official decisions as a council of fourteen wise people, whose debates apparently got heated enough they needed a dedicated mediator, which clearly indicates some sort of dystopian hivemind? The La Li Lu Le Lo...

Final Fantasy Fourteen Online: Endwalker: Ancients Are Wrong No Matter What: That Is Sophistry And You Know It™

By the way, I feel the need to mention that people in Elpis respect you, whom they believe to be a familiar, arcane entity without a soul, enough to ask you your opinion about funerary rites, and genuinely consider and appreciate your input. After Charmion makes you a cool smoothie so you don't dissipate.

Also, I will never ceased to be amused by people judging Ancients by nitpicking every single little flaw about their society, which indeed has points of contention to debate (which was their thing, remember?), but conveniently never compare them to the totally superior Sundered. Truly, all this suffering, misery, scarcity and violence due to fear of mortality, was worth it.

[CrownySuccubus]

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them.

More precisely, he mentioned that the were mass-produced for this reason. Not that this was their initial purpose. I suppose it's something like dogs originally being tamed by humans to make hunting and gathering easier, but now you can just own a little chihuahua that, unless you just want a yapping alarm, serves no purpose other than headpats and snuggles.

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

But, they kinda do have that right, though. Again, if you plan on living in any home or civilization larger than a tribe in a cave, people will need to make decisions for the environment. Want cooked food? Gotta learn how to safely make a fire that won't burn everything down for miles. Want to farm crops? Gotta learn how to do irrigation if you don't want to starve when it doesn't rain. Wanna not be eaten by bears? Gotta learn how to cut rocks and wood and other stuff into walls or weapons.

That's the essence of sapience. If you don't want your life to be at the random whims of nature, you have to learn how to control nature to a proportionate extent.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them.

That was actually Hythlodaeus right when we encounter the landshark. Since he is the Chief of the Bureau and knows what's en vogue right now.

The thing also is, no matter how much of an apex predator and ultrastrong creature a creation is, at some point they will have to get a seal of approval from the Chief of the Bureau and if his first reaction to something is "Wtf is that, why" it gets filed away or right in the bin. It's really not as much of a problem as it appears to be since they do have processes in place to make sure nothing stupid gets released into the wild.

Meteion was only able to slip under the radar since Hermes is in charge of Elpis and can probably just make stuff there without prior approval of the Bureau. As Hythlodaeus says, he expects the paperwork to be handed in asap when he meets Meteion for the first time.