Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[aveyond-dreams]

Dude, you keep bringing up a stupid burger as to why a whole expansion is bad.


Not remembering minor character deaths in xii is no where close to the same thing lol

Elements that take the player out of the fantasy world and forcefully shatter my immersion are something that I will continue to call out. It was too far removed from what I expected of Sharlayan and the whole of Endwalker besides. I don't care if there's "modern" stuff outside the MSQ and away from my line of sight like the frog outfit or the car mount. This however was put directly in front of my face in the main story.

The handling of characters in FFXII was still better than the current cast of Scions at any rate, from having them be forced into making critical decisions, moments of actual danger, and sacrifices that were not undone with as much haste as the examples I've cited previously. As I've also said before, if you are doing something meaningful with your cast members then there isn't a need to retire or kill them off. If you're not, then it is preferable for characters who have fulfilled their purpose to exit the stage so that others can have a chance to shine. Do you agree?

[MikkoAkure]

Tidus's sacrifice took an entire other game to undo, again this wasn't resolved within the span of a half hour like Ultima Thule or Emet Selch pulling Y'shtola out of the life stream.

A lot of people forget that Tidus comes back after the credits in FFX. You don't need to wait until FFX-2 and get 100% completion, you just need to wait 5 minutes. FFX ends, credits roll, and then the "sacrifice" is immediately undone and Tidus wakes up in the ocean, and the cutscene is just continued in FFX-2.

The handling of characters in FFXII was still better than the current cast of Scions at any rate, from having them be forced into making critical decisions, moments of actual danger, and sacrifices that were not undone with as much haste as the examples I've cited previously.

As far as FFXII goes, even though that's my favorite in the series, I will admit it doesn't exactly have memorable characters outside the main 6 and I've yet to meet anyone who actually likes Vaan and Penelo, the latter of which has basically no characterization that isn't tied directly to the former. But if we're counting the deaths of guest characters, XIV has Ysayle, who definitely counts. FFXII also has a fake-out death at the very end with Fran and Balthier. So much for "sacrifices that were not undone".


But for the upteenth time, FFXIV doesn't need deaths of the main party in order to make a compelling story. While there are Final Fantasy games that have killed main characters, there are many that haven't. It goes both ways. It can be your personal opinion that you think it could make it better but it's still popular and I don't think killing someone is going to suddenly make it skyrocket in the eyes of current or potential players.

Besides, out of the most popular characters in the game, the most popular, Emet-Selch, was killed by our own hand and number 3 also died, Venat, who helped us throughout the whole entire game and is the first voice we hear and the singer of multiple songs in the game. It's not like there isn't death close to home but people keep laser focusing on the Scions for some reason. Considering there's a whole game mechanic that spans two expansions where you can raise their levels and switch between pre-set outfits, I don't think they're going anywhere because they're built into the game now. Had Trust operated differently between both expansions instead of carrying over, I would agree that they're not safe, but I don't see that anymore.

[Theodric]

LOL, don't want to hear about deflection from the king of it.

And I'm not mistaken. No major characters die in xii after the opening.

If minor characters dying matter to you guys, then XIV should be doing fine. We've lost tons.

Resorting to personal attacks, eh? Again, deflection. At least it's better that accusing people of hating women for disliking Venat's genocidal rampage, I suppose.

Neither Vossler or Reddas were 'minor characters' in FFXII. They were integral to the story and their deaths had major implications and consequences elsewhere.

This doesn't seem to be anything more than the usual attempt to stir outrage because someone dared to state that maybe one or two more characters could stand to die - something which many within this community seem to take as some sort of personal attack, strangely enough.

[aveyond-dreams]

A lot of people forget that Tidus comes back after the credits in FFX. You don't need to wait until FFX-2 and get 100% completion, you just need to wait 5 minutes. FFX ends, credits roll, and then the "sacrifice" is immediately undone and Tidus wakes up in the ocean, and the cutscene is just continued in FFX-2.


As far as FFXII goes, even though that's my favorite in the series, I will admit it doesn't exactly have memorable characters outside the main 6 and I've yet to meet anyone who actually likes Vaan and Penelo. But if we're counting the deaths of guest characters, XIV has Ysayle, who definitely counts. FFXII also has a fake-out death at the very end with Fran and Balthier


But for the upteenth time, FFXIV doesn't need deaths of the main party in order to make a compelling story. While there are Final Fantasy games that have killed main characters, there are many that haven't. It goes both ways. It can be your personal opinion that you think it could make it better but it's still popular and I don't think killing someone is going to suddenly make it skyrocket in the eyes of current or potential players.

Besides, out of the most popular characters in the game, the most popular, Emet-Selch, was killed by our own hand and number 3 also died, Venat, who helped us throughout the whole entire game and is the first voice we hear and the singer of multiple songs in the game. It's not like there isn't death close to home but people keep laser focusing on the Scions for some reason. Considering there's a whole game mechanic that spans two expansions where you can raise their levels and switch between pre-set outfits, I don't think they're going anywhere because they're built into the game now. Had Trust operated differently between both expansions instead of carrying over, I would agree that they're not safe, but I don't see that anymore.

Ysayle = 2015. We are in the year 2022.

Fran and Balthier provided sufficient entertainment to warrant their survival, and as others have stated FFXII had numerous character deaths of figures important to the plot. This is why something like this is accepted in FFXII but frowned upon when FFXIV does something like Ultima Thule.

And to quote myself =

As I've also said before, if you are doing something meaningful with your cast members then there isn't a need to retire or kill them off. If you're not, then it is preferable for characters who have fulfilled their purpose to exit the stage so that others can have a chance to shine. Do you agree?

We focus on the Scions because they are quite literally our main party. I expect more to be done with these specific characters than what is currently happening. Meaningful consequences. Critical decisions. Sacrifices that aren't waved away with magic gizmos.

At this point despite my love of the Trust system I would rather see it scrapped in favor of Duty Support only dungeons if it means we can get some more variation and comings/goings in the cast.

As a final note, the scene you have cited in FFX's ending does not in fact end with Tidus resurfacing on Besaid. He is in the ocean and the scene ends just before he emerges. Anyone can interpret this scene various different ways but it wouldn't be inaccurate to interpret it as him moving on to the afterlife somehow.

[MikkoAkure]

Neither Vossler or Reddas were 'minor characters' in FFXII. They were integral to the story and their deaths had major implications and consequences elsewhere.

Vossler and Reddas are still considered minor characters. Main characters are usually limited to the party and the main villain. Neither of them show up on the posters from what I remember. If you're not important enough to be on any poster or material meant to advertise the game, you're not a main character.

This doesn't seem to be anything more than the usual attempt to stir outrage because someone dared to state that maybe one or two more characters could stand to die - something which many within this community seem to take as some sort of personal attack, strangely enough.

Saying a character could stand to die isn't the same as saying they need to die in order for it to be good, which is the impression that me and a few others seem to be getting. If it had been left at just "yeah, some characters could stand to die", that would be one thing. But instead people keep bringing up about how deaths and sacrifices made other games better when that's not always the case and the examples aren't completely accurate either.

Killing characters doesn't immediately equal writing brilliance or success and 2 recent FF titles that had "kill-em-all" endings aren't universally remembered fondly or much at all and the deaths didn't save them from other problems going on in the production or the writing.

As a final note, the scene you have cited in FFX's ending does not in fact end with Tidus resurfacing on Besaid. He is in the ocean and the scene ends just before he emerges. Anyone can interpret this scene various different ways but it wouldn't be inaccurate to interpret it as him moving on to the afterlife somehow.

I haven't encountered anyone until now who thought the ending was vague or subjective, and the end of FFX-2 continues that same scene so yeah, he comes back after 5 minutes.

[Theodric]

Each to their own, I doubt we'll agree as to what constitutes a 'minor' and 'major' character on that basis. I base it on plot relevance and the ripple effects of their actions, not whether they survive the events of a game.

It also isn't argued that death for the sake of death is necessary. That seems to be something people like to try and reframe requests for more consequences as being despite many of us being on record as stating we simply want logical, consistent worldbuilding and realistic stakes when a major threat arises.

Though all of this has been pointed out many times already so I propose we agree to disagree.

[MikkoAkure]

Each to their own, I doubt we'll agree as to what constitutes a 'minor' and 'major' character on that basis. I base it on plot relevance and the ripple effects of their actions, not whether they survive the events of a game.

Penelo does nothing of consequence the entire game but she's a "main character" because she's in the party the entire game's length and is playable. "Minor" characters can have more of an effect on the story than "main" characters, but it doesn't suddenly make them a main character. If the media team around FFXII agreed with you, then both Reddas and Vossler would have had positions on the main posters, but they don't. Even Larsa is there and he's also a guest character.

And I never said that whether or not they survive the game makes a main character. Famous FF characters in the main party died partway through or at the end and are main characters.

[aveyond-dreams]

Penelo does nothing of consequence the entire game but she's a "main character" because she's in the party the entire game's length and is playable. "Minor" characters can have more of an effect on the story than "main" characters, but it doesn't suddenly make them a main character. If the media team around FFXII agreed with you, then both Reddas and Vossler would have had positions on the main posters, but they don't. Even Larsa is there and he's also a guest character.

And I never said that whether or not they survive the game makes a main character. Famous FF characters in the main party died partway through or at the end and are main characters.

This still does nothing to justify the current state of the scions or how little in the way of lasting consequences they've suffered over the course of the main story. Many of them have served their purpose. I for one see no reason as to why we should bring the likes of Thancred or Urianger into the void, much less the twins. Tolerating Y'shtola and the de-fanged Estinien is already quite an ask, to say nothing of the rest.

[Theodric]

I don't put much weight on whether a character is on a promotional poster or not and instead focus on their contributions to the story. There's plenty of movies with posters proudly displaying actors front and centre who end up having very minor roles. I consider the cast as a whole when I play a game - not just whoever is in the 'main party'.

[MikkoAkure]

I don't put much weight on whether a character is on a promotional poster or not and instead focus on their contributions to the story. There's plenty of movies with posters proudly displaying actors front and centre who end up having very minor roles. I consider the cast as a whole when I play a game - not just whoever is in the 'main party'.

Actors who have contractual obligations and are promoted due to their big names to draw interest are completely different from CGI/drawn people who no one knew about before the media they were invented for became a thing. They may be main characters to you, but they're not main characters to the people who made them, apparently.

Emet-Selch and Venat are both popular characters who have been recently offed due to the needs of the story. The Scions' continued existence means that Yoshi-P obviously has more he wants to do with them and isn't necessarily due to any fear of killing characters. If he wanted to kill them, he has had many chances but at this point they're probably here to stay whether or not people grumble.