We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[Ilisidi]

There's a very wide field between mentors unsyncing Ifrit because the new player can't get past it with trusts and "why haven't you watched a guide and gone to the Balance so you can practice The One True Rotation on dummies for hours" for normal level content. And we never going to get an agreement where we should settle between that and how we do get people there. I don't think either extreme is something we should aspire for.

And every patches you run the chance that the job you knew got a rework and you start at learning again when you just wanted to see the latest ear wiggles the NPCs can do but you can't.

[AnimaAnimus]

I'll add myself to the growing chorus of players who have never experienced any issue like this despite giving plenty of advice for several years. It's all about just basic human decency and being polite when you mention something. It's pretty well known that being a jerk is taken seriously be SE. Plenty of people seem just fine giving advice without being a jerk.

Maybe because the ppl who did experience it were, idk...banned lol, and how many actually good players who were just trying to be helpful just never came back?

[LeonKeyh]

Your problem. You can be in the 87 dungeon and still be new enough to not know how to tank properly. Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

In my opinion this is tanking "well":

1. Hit all of the enemies to keep aggro
2. Use mitigation then use another if it runs out and there are still a decent number of enemies left
3. Pull everything you can


That's it. That is "tanking well" for most people (or at least me when I'm healing). Not a perfect rotation, not knowing that using 2 mitigations at the same time is bad because it's multiplicative, not knowing which mitigation is "best" for what situation, not knowing how/when to tank swap, not being able to line up your burst window with other people, not using your invuln to make a pull easier on the healer, not using your group mitigation during a party-wide attack, not understanding how the aggro system works, not understanding other jobs. Just pull everything, do at least 10% of the damage of the highest damage dealer, and press a mitigation, then when that runs out, press another one.

Maybe that's the problem, that people think something else is expected of tanks in dungeon content. Most people don't care if a tank presses the wrong attack, or the "wrong" mitigation, or doubles up on mitigation accidentally. Just pull everything, keep them on you, and make the healer's job easier by using mitigation.

[Xaphire]

I started reading this but its too much to go through, so I'll just share my experience.

I don't queue for dungeon roulettes anymore. I don't. For the longest time I'd queue for expert on WHM or PLD because I didn't want to wait in DPS queues, but I don't even do that anymore. If I need to cap tomes, or want to farm a specific piece of gear or a minion from current dungeons - I do it with trusts.

The average level of play from the community is so *low* that it is unironically faster to run the dungeons with trusts that with other players and it's less frustration. I've asked DPS players if they know their AoE rotations after watching them single target two packs in a row only to get screamed at. I've asked tanks to use mitigation for pulls. I've asked people to stand in asylum. I've watched people do the same mechanic wrong every time it happens on a boss fight and not learn.

Yes, we should expect the average play level to be higher. I'm not asking for everyone to be perfect. I'm asking that everyone know to follow the lighting up buttons on their hotbar. I'm asking that people know when to use AoE over single target. I'm asking for people to know to not stand in the telegraphed AoE immediately after a group-wide damage cast.

Until then, I'm queueing with trusts or full groups of friends.

[Padudu]

My own threshold for, "Is this worth commenting on unsolicited?" is something like, "Would the party actually notice a difference if they followed my advice?" Anything that prevents a wipe or prevents people from dying often falls in this category: mechanics, not doing enough to counter unavoidable damage, and so on. Anything less gets a bit touchier because it's less obvious that something could have gone better. "I'm still standing. We cleared. What's the problem?" To some extent, it's a fair point; the content didn't demand anything more of the party.

To implement harder content, I suspect we'd first need job quests or similar that attempt to walk players through their kits in more depth. I can imagine going back to the original quest givers, talking to them, and when you ask them, "What is a <insert job>?", you get not only the lore background but an overview of the job's design philosophy and a chance to test your understanding in a repeatable solo duty. (Whether the players agree with the design is a topic for another thread…)

Yeah -- I think that's actually a solid threshold to have. I know on the OF we tend to be 'grr' towards suboptimal/bad players, but I wonder the amount of people who actually speak up to help them. I probably would guess most people would just rather take the 30 and dip -- which is fair. They can do what they want, their money their sub lol. There are a few people out there who get huffy over runs taking longer than usual despite still clearing or do get picky over dmg/rotational mistakes -- I think the best example of this is how the TalesFromDF subreddit can get at times over regular content. While the complaints/vents there are rather valid, you do get the select few who post damage logs in a dungeon run and pointing out a particular person's low dps for one reason or another, sometimes with no context. I find that a bit more.. distasteful or wrong? Apologies, I don't know the exact word that would fit there lol. It's one thing when it's hard content like extremes or savage, it's a bit different when it's normal dungeons for me. Idk, that subreddit can be a bit tunnelvision-y/hounding at times since really - that's probably a good amount of people out there who play XIV.

But I digress and agree with your line of thinking - it's better to speak up when it's more beneficial. Explaining mechanics, preventing wipes, and people missing vital skills in their rotations that can cause a bit of trouble are definitely times you're in the right to speak on, IMO. I find it less so when we are clearing the content even if it's at a slower pace, or if we wipe once and clear regardless. Sometimes people really do just make mistakes, forget to toggle on their stance, ect and that's ok.

I think my bar for intervening on bad players is a bit low lol. I just go with the flow unless we are actively wiping. I want people to have a good time, so unless they are really performing bad or leeching, I don't really care. I have some friends who only play casual content and while they're far from optimal and make plenty of mistakes, I'd rather let them have their fun when they run content with me and just enjoy the story. In the end it doesn't really matter, they are not raiders and will not likely touch end game content, so it's easier to ignore quirky gameplay and get through a dungeon run.

I think it's important to remember that the game as it stands caters to very casual players. There are people who do want to improve that just need a nudge in the right direction, and there are just people who are, well, bad at video games. For normal content, it's all ok. In my opinion - it's not OK to shove people onto trusts if they don't want to use trusts. Some people who are bad players still want a mmo experience with the human interaction included - they should get to have that even if they aren't the best player. Is it selfish behavior? Maybe, but you're also entitled to dip if the run isn't to your liking, you're also entitled to say something if you want to give them advice.

Also, to your harder content concept, I actually would like a in-depth tutorial/questline that goes into their skills, how it works, ect. Sometimes I think people actually just need a visual guide rather than reading tooltips. As a Yu-Gi-Oh player, I very well understand the concept of not reading what the hell any of the cards do haha. People only remember it by their effects --- and while we do have plenty of player made guides, it would help if SE gave sprouts a nudge in the right direction I think!

(I apologize for these incredibly long posts..)

[Striker44]

There are 80 (yes, eighty) dungeons between levels 15-87 currently, not including trials, raids or solo duties.
You absolutely should have a reasonable grasp of your role's responsibilities by level 50, let alone 87. Stop enabling bad behavior.

Except how many of those dungeons are actually required in order to progress the MSQ? Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that it's only a small number of those. On top of that, there's no guarantee that a person would be spending even all of those few actually performing a specific role such as tanking. Raids/Trials don't even apply because they're just boss fights, and the issues we're noticing in dungeons pertain to trash. Stop attacking honest players because you don't have a clue what their learning situation might be. Try actually being polite and helpful instead.

[Bukachu]

Except how many of those dungeons are actually required in order to progress the MSQ? Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that it's only a small number of those. On top of that, there's no guarantee that a person would be spending even all of those few actually performing a specific role such as tanking. Raids/Trials don't even apply because they're just boss fights, and the issues we're noticing in dungeons pertain to trash. Stop attacking honest players because you don't have a clue what their learning situation might be. Try actually being polite and helpful instead.

46 dungeons are required to progress MSQ, not counting raids, trials etc.

[Axxion]

Except how many of those dungeons are actually required in order to progress the MSQ? Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that it's only a small number of those. On top of that, there's no guarantee that a person would be spending even all of those few actually performing a specific role such as tanking. Raids/Trials don't even apply because they're just boss fights, and the issues we're noticing in dungeons pertain to trash. Stop attacking honest players because you don't have a clue what their learning situation might be. Try actually being polite and helpful instead.

Here is the thing since they took a stance on trying to make focus on the story first, they adding npc now to progress to the story. The NPC can do the mechanics to show them how to do it. If people dont feel like socializing with others, but if they want something faster then a group is way better. heck remember the steps of faith? thats an 8 man, now it is becoming a solo duty.

Listen no one is going to attack players that are willing to learn and ask questions like some of our peers think that some are doing. It more towards people that are refusing and being selfish in not learning the game after 50+. Should we talk about people not wearing their job stones at 30? or how some people don't read the tool tips about the skills that they have? Or should we talk about how the devs has not added another part of the hall of the novice to explain how things work?

Here is another note, people will be nice and kind , but is reciprocated back? not all the time. heck want me to tell you a story that happen to my friend while they where leveling up there tank and the healer told them "im tired of people telling how to play a role that they never queued up for" And all they asked was to heal a bit more and use more of ogcd that you have?

Like i do not understand how people can defend this type of behavior.

[Lami_Khatayin]

Sometimes people just press the wrong button. When I first started with an mmo mouse this happened to me a lot. Maybe a lot of these head scratching decisions are just a mistake on their part, not an actual lack of knowledge on how to play the game.

And actually this exact case because I have arms length right by Rampart. I usually pair them in trash pulls, but I know how easy it could be to hit the wrong one.

Yeah,was my first thought to. But he did it on every TB so...No.

[Myrany]

Here is the thing since they took a stance on trying to make focus on the story first, they adding npc now to progress to the story. The NPC can do the mechanics to show them how to do it. If people dont feel like socializing with others, but if they want something faster then a group is way better. heck remember the steps of faith? thats an 8 man, now it is becoming a solo duty.

Listen no one is going to attack players that are willing to learn and ask questions like some of our peers think that some are doing. It more towards people that are refusing and being selfish in not learning the game after 50+. Should we talk about people not wearing their job stones at 30? or how some people don't read the tool tips about the skills that they have? Or should we talk about how the devs has not added another part of the hall of the novice to explain how things work?

Here is another note, people will be nice and kind , but is reciprocated back? not all the time. heck want me to tell you a story that happen to my friend while they where leveling up there tank and the healer told them "im tired of people telling how to play a role that they never queued up for" And all they asked was to heal a bit more and use more of ogcd that you have?

Like i do not understand how people can defend this type of behavior.

true story for you

When I was brand new to the game I was on a server with the road to 50 (yes back then it was 50) and because I couldnt log in every day had a ton of rested time. End result was I was level 35 by the time I hit 17 content. A lady saw me in gridania one day and asked why I was level 35 with no job stone. I flat told her the truth. My gear was so bad I couldn't beat my lvl 25 class quest and I had already spent all the gil I had on a couple of pieces of gear but it just wasnt enough. SO I was just questing through hoping for quest rewards that would get me to the point I could beat the quest. She said "Stay right there" and went off and made me the velveteen set. I beat the quest on the first try and went on and got my job stone the same day. One of the kindest things I ever experienced in this game.

The point is sometimes it is not a lack of care or trying. Sometimes there is a reason for not having that stone.