We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[Merrigan]

Or rather, will get banned for being "toxic." Whenever someone spins advice as an insult.

Hm.

I've given a lot of advice over the years. I've never had a problem. And while I don't doubt that some people are quite touchy, I don't think many bother to report for a simple remark.

... If, at least, the remark is formulated in the right way. At the risk of angering some, I am beginning to suspect a very strong paranoia in most players. "If I say anything, SE will ban me".

Which is not true. On the contrary, most players are happy to get free advice - in the worst case, they don't answer anything. Maybe it would be good to stop over-interpreting the new rules that have recently come into force?

[LeonKeyh]

Hm.

I've given a lot of advice over the years. I've never had a problem. And while I don't doubt that some people are quite touchy, I don't think many bother to report for a simple remark.

... If, at least, the remark is formulated in the right way. At the risk of angering some, I am beginning to suspect a very strong paranoia in most players. "If I say anything, SE will ban me".

Which is not true. On the contrary, most players are happy to get free advice - in the worst case, they don't answer anything. Maybe it would be good to stop over-interpreting the new rules that have recently come into force?

It likely isn't true and likely isn't actually an issue. But that is the perception and the perception is what matters. Granted, it's mostly from people with garbage social skills actually being toxic and then complaining whenever someone reported them for saying "Tank stance idiot."

[Illmaeran]

This isn't a "Have you tried gitting gud?", but rather a question of when faced with difficulties or problems did you attempt to try and figure out what was going wrong with your gameplay or attempt to adjust what you are doing?

Yes, I have. Unfortunately they're of limited help due to cognitive damage that's killed my memory. In order for guides to get me to the point of Optimal, I'd have to run the multiple times, stopping before each boss to read it before engaging; every time. They're also not much help when a roulette tosses me into something for the first time on a new role and I haven't seen that dungeon since the one time I did it for the story.

When I say optimal, I mean *optimal*. Too many times here and in other places I get the message that a tank is either Perfect or Shit, with no in-between. I know my limitations and stick to roulettes, never going near even EX dungeons, let alone savage+ grade content. I'll never have rotations down perfectly/optimally, but I'm generally proficient enough to do well in normal roulette stuff as long as it's not the first time I've been there in a long time or on a new role.

[TaleraRistain]

You do have a warped view because

1) you described support as basically amounting to “do the work of two people to make up for a slacker”
2) this type of situation is more common than it’s not, cure 1 spammers, DPS who don’t AOE, YPYT, bad players are more common than players who play at any sort of competent Level and just saying “oh it’s fine just do their work for them” every time you encounter them is bad, they should actually learn to play the game

1) I said support may mean sometimes doing more than what in a perfect world may be our fair share

2) I haven't seen this on my DC as a PUG healer main and since the OP is presenting a character on my DC and seems to be trying to pass this off as the PUG healer main experience on my DC, then I felt this impression had to be disputed. What you are talking about is the rare exception, the same as those machine-like runs where no one makes mistakes. The majority of PUG runs I encounter are in the middle. I've done this for 8 years on the Aether DC. The OP said they have thousands of dungeons under their belt. I don't know if this is in the healer role or not. I have tens of thousands of dungeons in the PUG healer role under my belt. So trying to advocate that the game or the community implements further restrictions I feel is not supported by valid data. At least for this DC. I make no statements on other DCs. Those who share my experience on other DCs can comment.

[AmiableApkallu]

snip

My own threshold for, "Is this worth commenting on unsolicited?" is something like, "Would the party actually notice a difference if they followed my advice?" Anything that prevents a wipe or prevents people from dying often falls in this category: mechanics, not doing enough to counter unavoidable damage, and so on. Anything less gets a bit touchier because it's less obvious that something could have gone better. "I'm still standing. We cleared. What's the problem?" To some extent, it's a fair point; the content didn't demand anything more of the party.

To implement harder content, I suspect we'd first need job quests or similar that attempt to walk players through their kits in more depth. I can imagine going back to the original quest givers, talking to them, and when you ask them, "What is a <insert job>?", you get not only the lore background but an overview of the job's design philosophy and a chance to test your understanding in a repeatable solo duty. (Whether the players agree with the design is a topic for another thread…)

[TheElvenQueen]

Just introduce a "boooo" feature.
After every dungeon you get to downvote all other players.
Your char starts throwing rotten tomatoes and cabbages at others (you can still move, the throwing continues every 0.3 sec) just like *splat *splurge *blob while playing a crowded audience going "booooo!".
It doesn't do anything. It's not tracked or being logged.

Or is it?
After 100 boo-votes from others, you get a mail which starts a blue sidequest and ends with a shiny mega glitter snowflake mount.
Maybe a pyramid shaped vial that oozes green goo, for being so toxic, or a big grumpy troll, or a strawman figure in a tuxedo with a top hat and a cane,
which you can ride upon and fly off to the sunset as everyone wonders: how did he get that cool mount?!!?

[AnimaAnimus]

For all the talk of team-based play vs. Trusts in some of the more recent comments, the focus on the "under-performers" is a bit one-sided. I might argue that if you happen to have a bit of constructive advice that would be of significant help in making a run go more smoothly, then you're holding the party back by keeping that advice to yourself.

That isn't always so black and white. You can give tips to someone using the most flowery language, fill it will smileys and do everything possible to be nice and polite, but if that person doesn't wanna hear it, you are opening yourself up to a ban. This has been proven again and again over the past decade by ppl getting temp bans just for trying to help, no matter how friendly they are about it.

SE sees no difference between polite advice and someone spitting insults if the person on the receiving end is too soft or just wants to be a jerk, so many of us just ere on the side of caution and stay quiet or leave.

[LianaThorne]

That isn't always so black and white. You can give tips to someone using the most flowery language, fill it will smileys and do everything possible to be nice and polite, but if that person doesn't wanna hear it, you are opening yourself up to a ban. This has been proven again and again over the past decade by ppl getting temp bans just for trying to help, no matter how friendly they are about it.

SE sees no difference between polite advice and someone spitting insults if the person on the receiving end is too soft or just wants to be a jerk, so many of us just ere on the side of caution and stay quiet or leave.

This.
It's pretty well known that if you do anything that's considered disturbing the gameplay or experience for another player that it can be reported. Giving unwanted advice can be spun as harassment and lead to a temp ban for said person.

[xenahawk]

The issue is that most players either ignore player communication or refute it. I had a very similar experience as a healer with a tank that wanted to pull a bit big but kept popping it at 10% which lead to it being useless. It was only after 5 deaths that he began to actually listen despite me framing it as "hey it's really difficult to heal you since you are not using mit at right time. I can do the big pulls but you need to keep 1 defensive up at all times until more of the mobs die". Why not just take the advice the first time it is mentioned. I learned how to tank and mit properly precisely because another player told me about how to mit properly and I promptly decided to follow their advice.

I totally get that unless all parties a willing to communicate that can be an issue but just speaking from personal experience sometimes people might miss party chat in the messages which dont help. Im my comment was just to say i dont neccessarily think its an ability issue but a communication one. It dont change that there might still be an issue even when you try to communicate.

[Restonance]

Can hope, but I wouldn't hold my breath. SE has a track record of having shit GMs who cater to shit players.

This is the problem that forms when terrible players are protected. I never have and likely never will find another community or dev team that hates good players as much as 14's does.