On Azem's role in the story

[SannaR]

My problem with Azem isn't that they exist as part of the story. It's that they're connected to the PC. The devs are trying to walk on a tight rope. They don't want to give us too much information about Azem so that players can use their own imagination as to how they want to fill in the blanks. While also giving the character enough to make people go ok I can see the connection.

For me either Azem has future sight or is an us that ended up rejoining back to full and traveled back to a further point in time. In a Rhapsodies of Vana'diel type thing. Which I really don't want until we reach the point in the game's lifespan where talk of putting it into a similar mode that XI is in now. As the devs have taken steps to make it to where even sundered each shard might as well be a clone of Azem. Yet if Azem has future sight then why did that part not pass on? Unless that part didn't attach itself to their soul.

I guess I'm one of the few who picked up before 5.3 that the WoL was more than a familiar soul to Emet. Either its due to my using Japanese voices and English text. Since the English voices don't have as an animated look as the other languages. Just look at the animation differences when it comes to Haurchefant. That and Emet is also trying to drop hints the entire time. Always ending up disappointed as he doesn't want to use the Azem stone to force us to remember. I at least went oh crap we must have been something to Emet when Hythlodaeus drops the new old friend bit after having already said Emet and he were friends.

I know many don't like the whole future sight thing in stories but even what little we've gotten in XIV it acts as the same as any other future sight. In that it's very vague. Now from what I've seen there's two kinds. The kind that no matter what you do what was shown ends up happening. Or you can change what is shown. I personally would rather have Azem have future sight then have it be a fully rejoined WoL that had to grandfather paradox ourselves. Especially when it comes to how they reacted to The Final Days. It doesn't look good if we knew what's going on and chose to stay out of it for reasons.

[aveyond-dreams]

I feel like Azem has not been handled properly, and I take issue with how Endwalker described them as not only being someone else's pupil, but having their teacher be Venat. In my case this makes very little sense with how much older I picture my Azem as.

I do not want to see more agency taken away from what I picture them as, and I feel it would be better if every player retained the freedom to imagine their respective Azem's however they wish. Therefore, I do not want to see any further attempts made at telling more of Azem's past in this game.

[Vyrerus]

Frankly, I don't think they need it.

I'm sorry, but there's no real way to replace the line, "It's right here. A bit thin in the aether, but there's no mistaking it -- the color of its soul is almost identical to Azem's."

The entire reason he stops at all is because it's a soul almost identical to someone he knows. Either way, we're getting on the bus because of a personal ancient acquaintance. A friendship no matter how you slice it with someone important.

Even if that were the first instance of our Ancient identity coming to bear, as in if Hyth said something like, "It's almost identical to my friend Rando Ancient #42." Then we'd start learning about Randy #42, wondering about them, and wondering why they weren't on the Convocation or in some other important office etc.

I also don't think your take on Emet's personal motives really holds well, either. If he cared that much about any old soul, then why wouldn't he want to raise as many of them as possible as soon as possible to being lesser Ascians? Imo, you are underestimating/devaluing the idea of personal connection too much. Yet, even if he did, do you imagine yourself liking the set piece any more than you already don't? The intangible Elpis scene would then play out with Hades wanting to stop and be kind to a stranger, over Hyth wanting that.

It's kind of what others have already said on page 1. They chose to go with what would likely be a popular hook, since ties to the Ancients' world were gonna happen even without it. And they also chose to go with that hook being for character motivation outside the player's. It's the plot device they chose to use.

It's kind of like asking, "Why did you decide to play that piece of music on a flute? You know, it would sound a bit better played on a clarinet."

[KageTokage]

I do find it a little odd how much they seem to have dug into the perspective of Azem being "us" to a point that they're being insanely vague and open-ended about them when they've stressed that having the same soul =/= being the same person, which Ardbert and Fandaniel already demonstrated.

I would've rather had them be a distinct, clearly defined character like the mentioned because I never really cared to insert my own head canons into a character who by the game's reasoning thus far is not us...and I pray it stays that way.

[Gemina]

Hmm, admittedly I can have difficulty following along with the MSQ because it is a tree that grows upward as we climb it. That basically means that since it is staggered, and I don't refresh my memory with NG+ or additional characters, something of great significance can just fly right over my head when experiencing new content. As an example, I didn't realize we were a shard of Azem's sundered soul until they literally spell it out for us. I remember watching Mr. Happy's thoughts on I think was 5.3, and he said something along the lines of, "Well, we already knew that." And I'm over here all, "We do?"

If it offers any kind of fresh perspective from someone with an outward impression of the MSQ, if asked, "What do you think Azem's purpose is?" I would say that Azem represents the 'other' in the 'this, that' equation. Trying to find the face value of Azem's presence in the story will just send you in circles because it doesn't exist. Azem's purpose is much more internal, and roots the WoL to the world unsundered in a much more substantial way than just being one of Etheirys' rando citizens.

The connection between Azem/WoL and Hades is also necessary because it is revealed that they are friends. The purpose of this connection isn't for you, the player and your story; it is for Emet, the character and his story. Without this reveal, emotional scenes involving things like Hades' defeat, the intervention when facing Elidibus, and Kairos' mindwipe immediately become less poignant. I just don't see that happening without Azem's presence.

During the Eden storyline, we learn of the strong connection between Logrif and Mitron, and the latter being relentless in restoring Gaia's memories to full. And since Emet knew that Azem's soul was sundered, and not sacrificed to Zodiark, he likely never gave up. Ever. Until his defeat by none other than Azem. It's full circle.

[Kesey]

I don't know what the point of Azem is, or why they were added into the story...

I don't know what this character adds, and I don't know what the point was (or perhaps still is), which causes problems for any interpretations, analysis, or predictions; if I don't have an idea why they're here, I can't guess how they might factor in the future...


Why are they part of this story? (edited for length)

This was from Yoshi-P during a Q&A at a previous live letter earlier this year:

Q: I’m wondering what Azem was up to during the Final Days. Did they hear about what was going on from Venat, and how did they end up parting ways with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus? Will we learn more about Azem in the future?
（02:46:42）

A: What Venat’s successor to the seat of Azem was doing during the Final Days is a secret, one that may or may not be revealed in the future. However, we do have some idea of what they were up to. Whatever you imagine you would’ve done if you were Azem is probably the closest we can get to the truth. (laughs)

This was done during the live letter that laid out the vision for the next 10 years of the game. Assuming this means 4-5 more expansions worth of story, this pretty much tells us that what Azem was doing is a major plot point, what they are doing is more important than Hydaelyn/Zodiark, and you'll find out much later when we get that far in the plot.

There isn't more to add to this yet, beyond what was confirmed in Endwalker (friends with Emet, Hythlo, Elid etc, succeeded Venat, preferred travel and adventure, your player character is a fraction of their soul, and so on).

[Cleretic]

I'm sorry, but there's no real way to replace the line, "It's right here. A bit thin in the aether, but there's no mistaking it -- the color of its soul is almost identical to Azem's."

"Look, right there. That little sliver of aether--it's clearly alive, but in this state it's not going to do much. Why don't we give it a hand?"

That wasn't hard. Again, it's hard to tell if Hythlodaeus would treat a rando like that because we've only ever met him while we're solo... but because we've only met him solo, then it would've been no issue at all to write Hythlodaeus as someone who'd do that regardless.

A: What Venat’s successor to the seat of Azem was doing during the Final Days is a secret, one that may or may not be revealed in the future. However, we do have some idea of what they were up to. Whatever you imagine you would’ve done if you were Azem is probably the closest we can get to the truth. (laughs)

This was done during the live letter that laid out the vision for the next 10 years of the game. Assuming this means 4-5 more expansions worth of story, this pretty much tells us that what Azem was doing is a major plot point, what they are doing is more important than Hydaelyn/Zodiark, and you'll find out much later when we get that far in the plot.

See, I've always read this instead as a way to write Azem out of the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, without making the fact that they're not involved a plot hook. 'They'd be doing what you'd be doing' (they gave examples, and they were all stuff like 'crafting' or 'building a house', nothing suggesting importance) seems like a pretty easy way to write out the player insert without making their absence too alarming.

I agree that WoL as Azem-shard was not necessary but an easy story beat to use. I'm another person who only loved Azem crystal's ally-summoning power as the in-universe party finder lore justification. I also at no point EVER found Emet likeable -or Amaurot society remotely appealing; I'd only play a character in that society if I was explicitly burning it to the ground. So that first point about the player possibly disagreeing with what Azem's choice would be during the Final Days if the writers don't do the smart thing of leaving it open-ended ... by stating that one of the WoL's past lives was best friends with the last character in the game that I want my WoL to be around there's a massive disconnect between Azem and the WoL that any additional info would only strengthen. I don't have an 'Azem' headcanon because the interest in acknowledging that part of my character is nil. Interest in other Shard WoLs like Ardbert who have the same Azem piece? Yes! But I fundamentally no different than interest in characters like Ysayle, Krile, Arenvald, Tenzin, and others who also possessed the Echo and/or Blessing of Light.

And this brings up another thing that I thought they might've been doing, but rejected because I respect the writers too much to think that it was their angle.

It's possible that Azem was written to ingratiate us towards Emet and/or Amaurot, by declaring that they're our old friend/old home. That's not an invalid idea on its face even if it's one better done with foreshadowing or buildup, but the problem is that part only really comes out in 5.3, a good chunk after both Emet and Amaurot made their entrance (and Emet made his exit-with-prejudice). I think it comes up far too late to actually sway anyone; anybody who was already a fan doesn't need the extra convincing, and anyone who doesn't like it won't be convinced by such a late claim of connections.

Like, personally I can say that if Azem was friends with Emet, then I think Azem had bad taste in friends. 'But they're you' doesn't matter to me, because I also think younger me had some pretty poor taste in friends.

I feel like Azem has not been handled properly, and I take issue with how Endwalker described them as not only being someone else's pupil, but having their teacher be Venat. In my case this makes very little sense with how much older I picture my Azem as.

I do not want to see more agency taken away from what I picture them as, and I feel it would be better if every player retained the freedom to imagine their respective Azem's however they wish. Therefore, I do not want to see any further attempts made at telling more of Azem's past in this game.

But this part is, again, a consequence of the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, albeit a more interesting one than the blanket opt-out. Azem has personal connections with both Emet and Venat, neither of which are depicted as any closer than the other. This both acts as sort of a character reference for both of them ('you liked both of them as Azem so clearly they're both good people'), as well as nullifying any appeal to personal connection; with both sides' main face being a friend, you can't just pick based on which one Azem was closest to.

Again, I think the easier option here would be to just not have Azem exist in that space at all. But if they have to, Azem being friends with both at least at one time, with no clear falling out on either side, is the right thing to do.

[Rulakir]

It's possible that Azem was written to ingratiate us towards Emet and/or Amaurot, by declaring that they're our old friend/old home. That's not an invalid idea on its face even if it's one better done with foreshadowing or buildup, but the problem is that part only really comes out in 5.3, a good chunk after both Emet and Amaurot made their entrance (and Emet made his exit-with-prejudice). I think it comes up far too late to actually sway anyone; anybody who was already a fan doesn't need the extra convincing, and anyone who doesn't like it won't be convinced by such a late claim of connections.

Well, again, this is an EN localization issue. It's clear in other languages that Emet recognizes the WoL's soul at first sight as someone he knew, his dialog at the lift is more personal, Shade!Hyth outright says that Emet has feelings/affection for the person whose soul the WoL has, and the scene before the Hades trial he says (in JP), "Impossible! You... how can you be here? No... it's not... you're not him/her." Like I said, I was also confused we didn't have this context throughout 5.0 only to find out that EN is the only language that was seemingly stripped of it. -_-

Azem has personal connections with both Emet and Venat, neither of which are depicted as any closer than the other.

I think that's being generous. Azem, Emet, and Hyth (the "trio") are routinely depicted as having been tight knit. It's heavily implied that Emet & Hyth are the people upon whom Azem relied with Emet essentially being at Azem's beck and call. Something else unfortunately left out of EN is that Azem's summoning magic operates on having a "heartfelt wish" (which makes Emet & Hyth showing up in UT all the more touching). Hyth has an entire monologue about them. Whether or not you want to consider the NieR crossover canon (despite being written by Ishikawa), the trio frequently 'reveled until dawn'.

Meanwhile, Azem describes Venat as both close and distant. Venat also having to ask Emet and Hyth how Azem is doing would indicate they're not in contact as much as the trio are. Plus, they have a mentor/protege relationship and while those can be close, I personally wouldn't put it within the same realm as the trio.

[RyuDragnier]

Because here's the thing: they cannot influence the story they are closest to. This is something I've brought up oh-so-many times here, but it remains true: as a player insert, Azem has to sit out the events surrounding Zodiark and Hydaelyn, because it's meant to be a problem with no easy answer; a player-insert weighing in on the problem destroys that, because then suddenly the question mutates into one with right and wrong answers; of course the player-insert made the choice we're supposed to agree with, thereby instead casting the alternatives as choices we should disagree with. This is even true if they shot for a third answer instead of picking either of the established ones; that devalues both Zodiark and Hydaelyn. That's why they left the Convocation before the Zodiark summoning, and why they didn't respond to Venat's crew, but why neither time had an established reason; they needed to write Azem out of the conflict, but not in a way that rejected either side of it.

You miss the obvious answer as to how to write to why Azem didn't intervene...because there was another threat that could kill everybody on the star, regardless of whether Zodiark or Hydaelyn won. Before bringing up the Meteion card, remember, there is a LOT about ancient Etheirys we do not know. For all we know there could have been an actual Will of the Planet that was enraged at the Ancients and was willing to use its Avatar to destroy them all (think Chaos from FF7). For Azem, that would be a bigger threat, something that they'd have to deal with immediately. It didn't matter if Zodiark or Hydaelyn won in that case, the Avatar was going to kill everybody regardless.

That of course is a random possibility, but it's also one that warrants thought. Azem always tried to save people and protect Etheirys. The only way a writer could give a reason as to why the world's greatest hero was not involved would be writing in something that threatened everyone.

[Cleretic]

You miss the obvious answer as to how to write to why Azem didn't intervene...because there was another threat that could kill everybody on the star, regardless of whether Zodiark or Hydaelyn won. Before bringing up the Meteion card, remember, there is a LOT about ancient Etheirys we do not know. For all we know there could have been an actual Will of the Planet that was enraged at the Ancients and was willing to use its Avatar to destroy them all (think Chaos from FF7). For Azem, that would be a bigger threat, something that they'd have to deal with immediately. It didn't matter if Zodiark or Hydaelyn won in that case, the Avatar was going to kill everybody regardless.

That of course is a random possibility, but it's also one that warrants thought. Azem always tried to save people and protect Etheirys. The only way a writer could give a reason as to why the world's greatest hero was not involved would be writing in something that threatened everyone.

That's actually what I mean by shooting for a third answer. If you go for 'Azem was off fighting The Real Threat', then it paints both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides as wrong because they were fighting over something smaller. It's the same issue as if we learned Azem was pursuing a perfect medium option that wouldn't have required Zodiark sacrifices or the Sundering.

It's a permutation of something that I find plagues a lot of games with multiple endings; the existence of a 'true ending' (either in terms of 'everyone's happy' or 'this one has the real final boss') demotes all other options to 'false endings'. Which sucks if you think one of those false endings was the one with the right ideas.