On Azem's role in the story

[RyuDragnier]

Because here's the thing: they cannot influence the story they are closest to. This is something I've brought up oh-so-many times here, but it remains true: as a player insert, Azem has to sit out the events surrounding Zodiark and Hydaelyn, because it's meant to be a problem with no easy answer; a player-insert weighing in on the problem destroys that, because then suddenly the question mutates into one with right and wrong answers; of course the player-insert made the choice we're supposed to agree with, thereby instead casting the alternatives as choices we should disagree with. This is even true if they shot for a third answer instead of picking either of the established ones; that devalues both Zodiark and Hydaelyn. That's why they left the Convocation before the Zodiark summoning, and why they didn't respond to Venat's crew, but why neither time had an established reason; they needed to write Azem out of the conflict, but not in a way that rejected either side of it.

You miss the obvious answer as to how to write to why Azem didn't intervene...because there was another threat that could kill everybody on the star, regardless of whether Zodiark or Hydaelyn won. Before bringing up the Meteion card, remember, there is a LOT about ancient Etheirys we do not know. For all we know there could have been an actual Will of the Planet that was enraged at the Ancients and was willing to use its Avatar to destroy them all (think Chaos from FF7). For Azem, that would be a bigger threat, something that they'd have to deal with immediately. It didn't matter if Zodiark or Hydaelyn won in that case, the Avatar was going to kill everybody regardless.

That of course is a random possibility, but it's also one that warrants thought. Azem always tried to save people and protect Etheirys. The only way a writer could give a reason as to why the world's greatest hero was not involved would be writing in something that threatened everyone.

[Cleretic]

You miss the obvious answer as to how to write to why Azem didn't intervene...because there was another threat that could kill everybody on the star, regardless of whether Zodiark or Hydaelyn won. Before bringing up the Meteion card, remember, there is a LOT about ancient Etheirys we do not know. For all we know there could have been an actual Will of the Planet that was enraged at the Ancients and was willing to use its Avatar to destroy them all (think Chaos from FF7). For Azem, that would be a bigger threat, something that they'd have to deal with immediately. It didn't matter if Zodiark or Hydaelyn won in that case, the Avatar was going to kill everybody regardless.

That of course is a random possibility, but it's also one that warrants thought. Azem always tried to save people and protect Etheirys. The only way a writer could give a reason as to why the world's greatest hero was not involved would be writing in something that threatened everyone.

That's actually what I mean by shooting for a third answer. If you go for 'Azem was off fighting The Real Threat', then it paints both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides as wrong because they were fighting over something smaller. It's the same issue as if we learned Azem was pursuing a perfect medium option that wouldn't have required Zodiark sacrifices or the Sundering.

It's a permutation of something that I find plagues a lot of games with multiple endings; the existence of a 'true ending' (either in terms of 'everyone's happy' or 'this one has the real final boss') demotes all other options to 'false endings'. Which sucks if you think one of those false endings was the one with the right ideas.

[RyuDragnier]

That's actually what I mean by shooting for a third answer. If you go for 'Azem was off fighting The Real Threat', then it paints both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides as wrong because they were fighting over something smaller. It's the same issue as if we learned Azem was pursuing a perfect medium option that wouldn't have required Zodiark sacrifices or the Sundering.

It's a permutation of something that I find plagues a lot of games with multiple endings; the existence of a 'true ending' (either in terms of 'everyone's happy' or 'this one has the real final boss') demotes all other options to 'false endings'. Which sucks if you think one of those false endings was the one with the right ideas.

It doesn't paint the two sides as wrong for fighting over something smaller. They were still deciding the fate of many souls on the star, something really huge by anybody's standards. What it does do however, is make it so there was never going to be a happy ending. If Zodiark/Hydaelyn won, the big threat was still going to sacrifice the souls of the Ancients (in some manner). If said threat is dealt with and Zodiark/Hydaelyn wins, souls are sacrificed. There is no True Ending or Golden Ending in this scenario, it's merely a case of "Who do you choose to let die, Azem? Yourself and your fellow Ancients, the ones already sacrificed to Zodiark, or the souls of the new life?"

[Cleretic]

It doesn't paint the two sides as wrong for fighting over something smaller. They were still deciding the fate of many souls on the star, something really huge by anybody's standards. What it does do however, is make it so there was never going to be a happy ending. If Zodiark/Hydaelyn won, the big threat was still going to sacrifice the souls of the Ancients (in some manner). If said threat is dealt with and Zodiark/Hydaelyn wins, souls are sacrificed. There is no True Ending or Golden Ending in this scenario, it's merely a case of "Who do you choose to let die, Azem? Yourself and your fellow Ancients, the ones already sacrificed to Zodiark, or the souls of the new life?"

That actually does still read as both sides being blind to the real threat.

I don't think it's impossible to say Azem isn't off doing good in fight-y ways. I think there's perfectly valid motivation in being, essentially, the person who cares for the home front while everyone is busy; no matter who wins, it'd suck to come back home to see that it all burned down while they were gone. But the thing Azem's fighting can't be bigger than the central conflict, or else it makes everyone participating in the central conflict look stupid for not noticing. And if Azem tells absolutely nobody about it like by all appearances they did... well, then Azem had better have a damn good reason or two (much like Venat did when keeping quiet about the End of Days), or else Azem looks even worse.

If Azem is fighting something, that something can't be of a larger scale. That doesn't mean it can't be important, but we're looking less at a scale of 'another MSQ' and more like, say, a raid storyline; the Omega investigation to the Z/H conflict's Stormblood MSQ. ...which Pandaemonium would theoretically be perfect for, except for the part where it's taking place before Azem split.

[Kesey]

(much like Venat did when keeping quiet about the End of Days)

In Anamnesis Anyder, the recording does show that Venat and company reached out to "the defector" which we know was Azem and speak in past tense about telling the Convocation but were ignored.

Doesn't really sound like a big secret on Venat's part. Venat's only big secret is she made the ultimate sacrifice for all of the living souls of the star.

[KageTokage]

In Anamnesis Anyder, the recording does show that Venat and company reached out to "the defector" which we know was Azem and speak in past tense about telling the Convocation but were ignored.

I was under the impression that was in reference to the Convocation going through with the third sacrifice, because Elidibus spells it out pretty plainly that they didn't know what caused the Final Days.

I'm really hoping they'll elaborate on exactly what she and her faction were trying to accomplish in the period before and after the Final Days as well as how much she told them about her grand plan, because the whole situation is just made...strange by the fact that we now know that she never seemed to have any intention of not causing the Sundering due to believing the Ancients were inherently incapable of stopping Meteion in their current state.

[Cleretic]

I was under the impression that was in reference to the Convocation going through with the third sacrifice, because Elidibus spells it out pretty plainly that they didn't know what caused the Final Days.

I'm really hoping they'll elaborate on exactly what she and her faction were trying to accomplish in the period before and after the Final Days as well as how much she told them about her grand plan, because the whole situation is just made...strange by the fact that we now know that she never seemed to have any intention of not causing the Sundering due to believing the Ancients were inherently incapable of stopping Meteion in their current state.

I always got the feeling that she did want to find other methods than the Sundering, but the world around her kept stubbornly sailing in such a way that she realized that it was the only one available. We see her genuinely try to convince the crowd about to perform the second sacrifice to move on, and only seemed to steel herself once she realized her words fell on deaf ears; would she have done that if she didn't think these things were avoidable? Similarly, the Anamnesis crew definitely seemed to be aware of the Sundering as what was gradually proving to be their only option, but they were still trying to find other methods.

Which makes sense to me; remember there were still a lot of 'if's about Plan Hydaelyn, and not only were we not the best narrator, it seems Venat didn't know she actually pulled off the time loop until we came down and told her (which makes sense; if all we told her was the MSQ, she didn't hear about Alexander to learn time loops are possible). If you had a plan that only had a chance of working, but going through with it would undeniably cost everything you knew, you'd try to find alternatives up until the last moment.

[EaraGrace]

In Anamnesis Anyder, the recording does show that Venat and company reached out to "the defector" which we know was Azem and speak in past tense about telling the Convocation but were ignored.

Doesn't really sound like a big secret on Venat's part. Venat's only big secret is she made the ultimate sacrifice for all of the living souls of the star.

They refer to reaching out as “overtures” which, based in a very cursory glance at definitions means

a: an initiative toward agreement or action
b: something introductory

So whatever was discussed was at the beginning stage and likely not substantive yet. Given this is Venats handpicked successor, and the only person we know to defect over Zodiarks summoning, the fact that they are still bothering with a slow introduction actually indicates the inverse of what you said. If anyone was a likely candidate to join her faction, it’s them, yet Hydaelyns summoners resorted to introductions first. Why do that if yiu weren’t be careful?

[Kesey]

They refer to reaching out as “overtures” which, based in a very cursory glance at definitions means



So whatever was discussed was at the beginning stage and likely not substantive yet. Given this is Venats handpicked successor, and the only person we know to defect over Zodiarks summoning, the fact that they are still bothering with a slow introduction actually indicates the inverse of what you said. If anyone was a likely candidate to join her faction, it’s them, yet Hydaelyns summoners resorted to introductions first. Why do that if yiu weren’t be careful?

I see what you're trying to say. But the connotation of the word "overtures" could have meant they tried to start a debate about it with Convocation and they were shut down (most likely because they were tempered to Zodiark and wouldn't change their minds). Much like how asking someone out is a romantic "overature".

[Kesey]

That's actually what I mean by shooting for a third answer. If you go for 'Azem was off fighting The Real Threat', then it paints both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides as wrong because they were fighting over something smaller. It's the same issue as if we learned Azem was pursuing a perfect medium option that wouldn't have required Zodiark sacrifices or the Sundering.

It's a permutation of something that I find plagues a lot of games with multiple endings; the existence of a 'true ending' (either in terms of 'everyone's happy' or 'this one has the real final boss') demotes all other options to 'false endings'. Which sucks if you think one of those false endings was the one with the right ideas.

The scale of Hydaelyn and Zodiark may be smaller in scale in the future, but I think it was pretty clear in the story that if the Zodiark side had their way the Final Days would still come to pass in the future, but if Hydaelyn side wins, then there is a permanent solution where Meteion can't have the Final Days.

The one ending is the true ending. There are no other possible false endings. You either stop the Final Days or unsub.