On Azem's role in the story

[SannaR]

Well what we do know about Azem's quitting of the Convocation is that it happened before the summoning of Zodiark as the decision to do so is what causes them to "turn traitor". Now all we can assume they were still around post Zodiark summoning that gave the planet's healing a jump start or I doubt Venat would have tried to reach out to them if they were somehow off world or already dead at the time. We also know that by the time Elpis happens they are already Azem and the Volcano incident already happened. Along with at least one not mentioned other incident as the Volcano was the 2nd time Azem came close that we know of being kicked out.

[Lyth]

Emet's reconstructed Amaurot occurs at a time when the Final Days have started but Zodiark has not yet been summoned. The Amaurotian citizens speak of Azem's departure in vague terms, as if it is just a rumor. The exception is Hyth 2.0, but he's also not strictly acting in keeping with the timeline and is aware about the events that play out following Zodiark's summoning.

Here's what we know:

• The specifics of Azem's departure from the Convocation are not public knowledge
• Azem's departure happens sometime between the events of Pandaemonium and Emet's 'remembered' Amaurot inclusive
• Azem is not contactable by Venat's group prior to Hydaelyn's summoning

With regards to Pandaemonium itself, we know that an unmarked memory stone (likely the precursor to Lahabrea) appeared to the Aitiascope scientists in the present day aetherial sea as if thrown. That's a second, independent link between past and present that didn't involve our own gate in through the Crystal Tower. So it looks like there's might be a second time loop here, and another potential reason for Azem to be in absentia.

And then there's the looming question on how the Final Days of Amaurot even started, given that the index transformation shouldn't be able to occur under normal circumstances. Of course, if you were to take a hemitheos...

[Rulakir]

I was under the impression that was in reference to the Convocation going through with the third sacrifice

Same.

I still haven't seen anything to suggest unequivocally that Hydaelyn's summoners knew about the sundering (at least beyond Zodiark) either. I certainly wouldn't say it's 'definite' based on the ambiguous dialog in Anyder and Omega.

Also worth noting that in JP and DE it's stated that Azem has "sworn themselves to neutrality" and will not respond to their "invitation".

[Lurina]

e: Wrong thread.

[Tehmon]

The emotional weight of being the sundered Azem is kind of lost on me because nobody ever acknowledges that we are the sundered Azem. We reach the height of that revelation at the end of 5.0 with Emet's denial, but whenever Azem and our relation to them is brought up again after that, it feels like a dud, like '' what am I supposed to do with this information and why should I feel any type of way, nobody else seems to feel any type of way about it either. ''

I was expecting the Elpis section to at least address our existence, have Emet go on another round of denial that we are the remnants of his friends shattered existence or something, but beyond Hythlodaeus' '' I don't understand how you are so alike, yet so different '' it's never really brought up. So neither am I convinced that I should have this emotional attachment to my bygone friends of the ancient era, when the whole Azem thing is just a shallow as f plot device.

Not that I don't enjoy imagining what my interpretation of Azem would be for my WoL, but that is as far as it goes.

[SannaR]

The emotional weight of being the sundered Azem is kind of lost on me because nobody ever acknowledges that we are the sundered Azem. We reach the height of that revelation at the end of 5.0 with Emet's denial, but whenever Azem and our relation to them is brought up again after that, it feels like a dud, like '' what am I supposed to do with this information and why should I feel any type of way, nobody else seems to feel any type of way about it either. ''

I was expecting the Elpis section to at least address our existence, have Emet go on another round of denial that we are the remnants of his friends shattered existence or something, but beyond Hythlodaeus' '' I don't understand how you are so alike, yet so different '' it's never really brought up. So neither am I convinced that I should have this emotional attachment to my bygone friends of the ancient era, when the whole Azem thing is just a shallow as f plot device.

Not that I don't enjoy imagining what my interpretation of Azem would be for my WoL, but that is as far as it goes.

I don't know. I think there was just enough during Elpis. Hades spots us. Quickly notices the soul color and then pretends to not have done so and would have continued it for a lot longer if Hythlodaeus hadn't stopped at the door and called him out on it. Hythlodaeus then wonders if it's something Azem did for the luls and Hades corrects them. He then continues to not trust you. Similar soul color, and exact looks be damned. Hades might have had more trouble about the Wol being a sundered version if Azem if he handled what he becomes better. Remember the man shows more in his facial expressions and mannerisms than what he verbalizes. I think Hythlodaeus's problem is that we have a different personality than Azem. That and before knowing why our aether is thin he has the mind set of your average Ancient dealing with a familiar.

[Tehmon]

I don't know. I think there was just enough during Elpis. Hades spots us. Quickly notices the soul color and then pretends to not have done so and would have continued it for a lot longer if Hythlodaeus hadn't stopped at the door and called him out on it. Hythlodaeus then wonders if it's something Azem did for the luls and Hades corrects them. He then continues to not trust you. Similar soul color, and exact looks be damned. Hades might have had more trouble about the Wol being a sundered version if Azem if he handled what he becomes better. Remember the man shows more in his facial expressions and mannerisms than what he verbalizes. I think Hythlodaeus's problem is that we have a different personality than Azem. That and before knowing why our aether is thin he has the mind set of your average Ancient dealing with a familiar.

My point is that while yes, all those things happen, it's not really pushed forward outside of Emet and Hythlodaeus noticing the color of our soul and that being an important plot point in terms of advancing the story and Elpis section.

Now, you are right in that Emet does express his true feelings through facial expressions often than not, and for all we know Emet's last smile he gives us might as well be one that is directed to both WoL AND the dear friend he possibly sees in us, and that's how we are supposed to understand that scene. But I do not think this was the time to be subtle, especially because I think a more straightforward acknowledgement and emotional reaction from Emet, and maybe Venat too, would've also put the Azem plot point to rest, perhaps for good. Now it's just kinda dangling in front of us and I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with it. The only people who give a damn about Azem are all dead or deader than dead, but it doesn't feel like we've reached a conclusion or an emotional climax on that plot point... so what now? Perhaps there is more story to tell, but as we drift further from the ancients, it feels odd to bring that point back once more.

In terms of whether we have a similar personality to Azem... the way Hythlodaeus describes Azem certainly doesn't sound like Azem is that much different from us.
Excitement follows wherever we go, we keep meddling in other people's business and irritating Emet is our favorite hobby. And there has to be something more to it than just the color of our souls since Hythlodaeus is so candid with us. I mean, he says it must be the color of our soul that makes him so comfortable with us, but that is just his theory. In the end, we have no idea what he means when he said '' you are so alike but so different '' and that can be interpreted in MULTIPLE ways, similarly to when amaurot-Hythlodaeus says that he wonders if Emet realizes the similarities with us and Azem. Does he mean our soul, or something else?

[Kesey]

The emotional weight of being the sundered Azem is kind of lost on me because nobody ever acknowledges that we are the sundered Azem. We reach the height of that revelation at the end of 5.0 with Emet's denial, but whenever Azem and our relation to them is brought up again after that, it feels like a dud, like '' what am I supposed to do with this information and why should I feel any type of way, nobody else seems to feel any type of way about it either. ''

I was expecting the Elpis section to at least address our existence, have Emet go on another round of denial that we are the remnants of his friends shattered existence or something, but beyond Hythlodaeus' '' I don't understand how you are so alike, yet so different '' it's never really brought up. So neither am I convinced that I should have this emotional attachment to my bygone friends of the ancient era, when the whole Azem thing is just a shallow as f plot device.

Not that I don't enjoy imagining what my interpretation of Azem would be for my WoL, but that is as far as it goes.

Your player character possess the soul fragments of Azem, Azem's soul stone, Azem's literal job, and Azem's proclivity towards adventure. Then Emet and Hythlo acknowledge it at the end of Endwalker. The post Shadowbringer's plot revolves around you being Azem, but hey "Azem is kind of lost on me because nobody ever acknowledges that we are the sundered Azem".

/end sarcasm

[Shookbeast]

Late to the party on this post - but I’ll toss my hat in to say that I also think Azem is possibly integral to the larger story of the game for our WOLs.

It’s possible that we’re actually the actual Azem, and will time travel back at some point to play in Ancient times - to set all the big events into motion. We eat grapes. Stop volcanoes. Party with Emet. We probably meet Venat “before” we meet Venat in Elpis - which is a trap door for the writers to explain away plot inconsistencies.

Whether we save the day in a way that makes everyone (both players and NPCs) happy is another question altogether.

We could do this storyline as soon at the current patch cycle - to wrap up this whole “sundered Azem” story. We could end the patches “depowered” from the events, and ready for a story reset in 7.0.

Or the “Azem Time Travel Shenanigans” storyline could literally be the last patch of the game - ending with us getting sundered… and looping us back to our starting position at the very beginning of the game.

I’m looking forward to seeing how the writers work this all out. It feels to me they’ve got something big and fun planned.

[RyuDragnier]

I don't think we'll travel back in time to become Azem...but I DO think at some point we'll be playing as Azem in a memory of some form. Basically think a location like Elpis, except instead of our souls transferred, we're actually reliving memories of our past self, possibly in an instance. Azem is definitely going to play a big role in the 2nd arc. Because their actions during Hydaelyn/Zodiark are not known, and one of the best ways to keep Azem indisposed is to have another threat they were dealing with. Plus I think it'd be kind of fitting to have the final boss of Arc 2 be a case of unfinished business.

Though to get there, I'd really like for them to have us go through Meracydia for one expansion (so we hit level 100), and then a few expansions in The New World, so it's built up. Plus if all the hints to it are in The New World, it'd be a good way to separate it from our previous adventures, along with the inevitable stat squish we all see coming (since they can reset the levels while you're in The New World, and give a unique HP amount while in those areas).