We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[LeonKeyh]

1/2:


I feel like people are seeing this as some sort of way to kick or insult sprouts that aren't playing well but that's not the case at all.

Most games have an overall difficulty curve that plays well with mechanisms that teach you how to play (some of those are explicit like tutorials, others are implicit like bosses/enemies that require that you use a certain ability to defeat).

A great game will marry the explicit/implicit tutorials with the difficulty curve to foster the growth/mastery of the player. This is not one of those games unfortunately. The first and last explicit tutorial for handling yourself in group content is the Hall of the Novice. While there are various implicit tutorials with game mechanisms within boss fights growing more and more complex, there are a few issues with it:

1. There are no implicit or explicit tutorials teaching someone how to play their job, or rather, there are but there are also essentially ways to "skip" them. Solo duties sort of fill the role of implicit tutorials to teach you your job. It "tests" you to see if you understand your job well enough. The problem? "Easy" and "Very Easy" options for solo duties. After 1 failure it "gives up" on you as the player and lets you take the easy (or very easy) way out.

2. Group content is under tuned to the point where 2 people (hell, 1 in some cases) could carry the entire group. As hinted at in my first point, FAILING in video games triggers you as a player to rethink what you've been doing and ultimately improve. With group content being so easy, you can continuously fail without necessarily realizing it because you're continuing to progress in the game. If a really casual player never fails, they're never going to sit and rethink how they've been playing. Thus, the difficulty actually perpetuates "bare minimum" gameplay from players. People complained about the ability to do trusts, but Dungeons with trusts FORCE you to actually learn boss mechanisms. I have known people in NN to ask if someone can run them through a dungeon because they can't complete it with Trusts.

3. There is a lack of explicit tutorials in later levels. Implicit tutorials are great for simple stuff (i.e. this is a knockback, you'll want to be near the center; this is bad, don't step in it) but for complex ideas like group synergies and job rotations, explicit tutorials would do a much better job. IMO, they should have a job-based tutorial at 50/60/70/80/90 that goes through and teaches you how your abilities interact with each other and then TESTS you to make sure you understand it. Also, Hall of the Novice was a good idea (not executed too great, but still) and I think that it could be cleaned up and augmented with Hall of the Intermediate, Hall of the Advanced, Hall of the Master, etc to go over various group/role dynamic things that people likely don't understand (Addle/Feint, Group mitigation buffs, Tank mitigation buffs, etc, etc)

[LeonKeyh]

2/2:


IMO, the fact that players get as far as they do without knowing/understanding the game is MORE of a failure of the game than the player (the player isn't innocent, but the game should do a better job). Without the game being there to help foster player skill and improvement, the community would need to step in to do so.

The problem is the postmodernist hate of criticism. There's ultimately 3 issues with players that make this very difficult to overcome:

1. Players believe that advice is criticism and believe that criticism is an insult of how they play. This causes people to shut down when given advice and just see the person giving it as an "elitist"

2. Players believe that failure is some big deal. While this isn't an issue with the more difficult content, players in "normal" content seem to believe that failure is some horrible thing, and that's why normal content is so under tuned. It's also why people are so against wall 2 wall pulling because "What if we wipe?" You're not going to die in real life, you respawn and go again.

3. Players don't want to improve, they don't want to put effort in, they just want to jump in and "have fun." The problem is that you're in a game with other people and there's an expectation for you to perform for those other people. You can't leech.

[Deceptus]

It is not the game of individuals, but of a community. And as it belongs to no one as such (... Except SE, but you get the point), it is necessary to find compromises.

The goal in dungeons should be "do your best to make this particular group work". If a healer kindly asks you to speed up the pace as a tank, do so; in exchange, don't pull in the tank's place if it makes him uncomfortable. You can see that you are not very useful in dps because you are accompanied by level 90 players who dismantle everything? Take the initiative to take the keys to pick up and go open doors, or switch on the elements needed for certain mechanics.

A lot of people are toxic not by insulting; not by giving advice in a dry way; but because it is visible through their gameplay that they are playing as if they are with bots. And yes, this reproach also concerns those who claim to "go at their own pace" without any consideration for others. And this is true whether their pace is particularly slow or particularly fast.

Basically:

If you don't want to be a team player in a team based game, go play with Trusts.

But a lot people don't do that because trusts take longer. Trusts take longer because the trusts are programmed to not do as much damage as players. It's the exact same way as people who aren't playing at a moderate level. If you can't even do as much damage as a Trust NPC, something that is SPECIFICALLY programmed to do lower dps, that's a YOU problem (general "you", not you specifically Merrigan) that you need to work on.

And yes, I've had runs in 80+ content take longer than a Trust would have taken.

It's a bit harsh to say that, but it's reality, something a lot of players need a healthy dose of.

[Xaruko_Nexume]

I dont understand the self importance one must have to queue up for a roulette with 3 or more random other people, with any expectation what-so-ever.

[Carin-Eri]

Assuming you play RDM as your profile says, this is what I would consider to be the bare minimum knowledge. You don't hardcast Verthunder2/Veraero2/Impact, you use AoE when there are at least 3 targets and you do utilise your melee combo and finishers, whether that is single target or AOE. For a dungeon, that is it. I don't expect you to always be casting, however, that should be the next thing to work on. Your other oGCDs? Not too bothered, it would be nice if you hit them, even if it isn't optimal, just when you notice it.

I would say that is fairly reasonable. It is the foundation of the RDM rotation after all, this is what everything relies on. If you do find yourself getting flustered over doing your rotation and mechanics, I would suggest going to a striking dummy and hitting it for a while, again, just the basics, and get it into muscle memory. The less you have to think about your rotation, the easier it is going to be to think about mechanics or starting to incorporate your other actions into your rotation.

Hopefully this helps you to get better accustomed to RDM and you will feel more confident going into content and not feeling like a hinderance. Also remember, mistakes do still happen, it was just the other day I accidentally walked off the edge of Endsinger and felt stupid, just laugh it off and learn from it.

Thanks for the advice

I'm actually, sort of, getting there with RDM. I do understand the rotation in principle - it's just putting it into practice where, as I said, I can end up getting clumsy, react slowly, and miss things as a result.

Mechanics are probably my biggest setback. I mean, I do generally get the idea - heck, (whilst I realise most here probably find it ridiculously easy anyway) I've played my favorite, Alzadaal's Legacy, frequently enough that I almost never die in that one anymore and I don't usually feel like a deadweight there.
Sadly, put me in Aglaia and I floor tank every boss

[Deceptus]

I dont understand the self importance one must have to queue up for a roulette with 3 or more random other people, with any expectation what-so-ever.

Because at a certain point, a certain amount of competence is expected. My personal threshold is lvl 70 (mostly due to jump potions existing), others is a bit lower at 60. You don't get much sympathy or have many excuses after lvl 80. You should have a basic understanding of your job. Full stop.

[BRVV]

I dont understand the self importance one must have to queue up for a roulette with 3 or more random other people, with any expectation what-so-ever.

So... a tank in a lvl 90 dungeon not activating tank stance at all would be ok then or did you exaggerate?

[Saraide]

So... a tank in a lvl 90 dungeon not activating tank stance at all would be ok then or did you exaggerate?

You are talking to the person who would be that tank.

[Boblawblah]

Basically:

If you don't want to be a team player in a team based game, go play with Trusts.

But a lot people don't do that because trusts take longer. Trusts take longer because the trusts are programmed to not do as much damage as players. It's the exact same way as people who aren't playing at a moderate level. If you can't even do as much damage as a Trust NPC, something that is SPECIFICALLY programmed to do lower dps, that's a YOU problem (general "you", not you specifically Merrigan) that you need to work on.

And yes, I've had runs in 80+ content take longer than a Trust would have taken.

It's a bit harsh to say that, but it's reality, something a lot of players need a healthy dose of.

I have to wonder, is it really the player who isn't doing enough (to you) dps's problem? The game doesn't punish them, in fact, it defends them against people being toxic towards them. So whos problem is it exactly? What "reality" is it really?

[Rilifane]

Basically:

If you don't want to be a team player in a team based game, go play with Trusts.

Agreed.
It's simply common sense that whenever you do an activity that is either team-based or takes place in a confined space where everyone's action are bound to affect others you try to not negatively affect others to the best of your abilities.
And "to the best of your abilities" doesn't mean pull off pro gamer moves - but try your best to be a teamplayer and make it a smooth experience for everyone by keeping it mind that everything one player fails to do another has to make up for.
Adjust the pull speed to the party, don't netflix and pick your nose if no healing is needed, use aoes in big pulls, use your mitigation (doesn't have to be used well, just use it), don't stand in the bad and stay in heal range of the healer, use cooldowns as often as you remember them etc.
No reason to make this out as some elitist bs and go around lamenting "b-b--but my FUN" - you're not the only player in a party, everyone's fun and smooth experience is equally important. This is at the same time nobody's and everybody's game.

You don't go on a open for all football field and start randomly run in someone else's way - there is no explicit rule against doing so but it obviously affects them negatively. If you play as a goalkeeper you don't randomly stand next to your goal because nobody told you that a goalkeeper should... you know... guard the goal a little bit?
You don't go ice skating in a rink open to public and stand around in the busiest parts and start a nice group chat even if there is no explicit rule against doing so. Nor do you practice fancy things in the middle of the most-used path, you go into centre where you're least likely to disturb anyone.
You don't go into a supermarket and tak care of that really long phone call in the middle of the only small path to another aisle because there are no rules against it and maybe it's your first time in a supermarket and you're also drunk and didn't sleep.
Not everything should be spelled out by the law for you, some things should simply be a matter of common sense.

But if you really don't want to be a teamplayer, there are trusts. One of the reasons they keep expanding on that feature is that people who'd rather play it like a single-player game can. And if your mindset is "I play what I want and I don't care about the rest of the party" then this is for you.
And if you don't like trusts because they're slower then congratulations, now you understand why people don't like it if others can't show some basic decency and respect towards other people's time by trying to be a teamplayer. Don't be a trust.