We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[LeonKeyh]

2/2:


IMO, the fact that players get as far as they do without knowing/understanding the game is MORE of a failure of the game than the player (the player isn't innocent, but the game should do a better job). Without the game being there to help foster player skill and improvement, the community would need to step in to do so.

The problem is the postmodernist hate of criticism. There's ultimately 3 issues with players that make this very difficult to overcome:

1. Players believe that advice is criticism and believe that criticism is an insult of how they play. This causes people to shut down when given advice and just see the person giving it as an "elitist"

2. Players believe that failure is some big deal. While this isn't an issue with the more difficult content, players in "normal" content seem to believe that failure is some horrible thing, and that's why normal content is so under tuned. It's also why people are so against wall 2 wall pulling because "What if we wipe?" You're not going to die in real life, you respawn and go again.

3. Players don't want to improve, they don't want to put effort in, they just want to jump in and "have fun." The problem is that you're in a game with other people and there's an expectation for you to perform for those other people. You can't leech.

[Wanzzo]

2/2:


IMO, the fact that players get as far as they do without knowing/understanding the game is MORE of a failure of the game than the player (the player isn't innocent, but the game should do a better job). Without the game being there to help foster player skill and improvement, the community would need to step in to do so.

The problem is the postmodernist hate of criticism. There's ultimately 3 issues with players that make this very difficult to overcome:

1. Players believe that advice is criticism and believe that criticism is an insult of how they play. This causes people to shut down when given advice and just see the person giving it as an "elitist"

2. Players believe that failure is some big deal. While this isn't an issue with the more difficult content, players in "normal" content seem to believe that failure is some horrible thing, and that's why normal content is so under tuned. It's also why people are so against wall 2 wall pulling because "What if we wipe?" You're not going to die in real life, you respawn and go again.

3. Players don't want to improve, they don't want to put effort in, they just want to jump in and "have fun." The problem is that you're in a game with other people and there's an expectation for you to perform for those other people. You can't leech.

(Before the numbers): i agree with this. The game is made with a different amount of exp given as each expansion comes. So, mid content (which was "last top content" in the past) gives more exp than before allowing the char to level faster than before. This leads to a reduced amount of repeatable content (mid content speaking). Like, how often you go t0 lv50 hard dungeons outside roulettes? How often you did that before expansions?

So, some mechanics tends to be in a blur area in ours memories leading to mistakes.

1- Like someone said, this can be aliviated choosing your words better. I always talks about what people can do to pass a mechanic or play their role better. No matter the risks. And I almost never got harsh insults but had myslef ignored at most. So, being kind is a strong weapon here

2- that's soooo true! Some take mid content like endgaming tryhard 20hs raiding stuff... xD Again, if we work on them, we can put things in a better mood...

3- yep, that's true. In this case, we have to adapt.

See? In pretty much all cases WE can do better to improve teams performance. And I go for that instead of just point fingers

[Padudu]

snip

Thank you for wording this more eloquently than I ever could! I rejoined the game a couple months before the release of EW, I had to go through ARR -- there is, at no point, up until ShB, where you are genuinely challenged or have hard steps. Yes solo duties can be difficult, but slap it on very easy and you will breeze through it. I've done it before just wanting to get through the MSQ. In duties, you can literally feel like you're contributing to your group without contributing to the group and that is the problem.

Of course there's obvious cases where you are performing so badly it affects the group. But for the most part? If you have even just one or two competent party members, you will get carried. Most of the time, no one says anything to you if you're playing suboptimally or downright wrong, so you think you're doing fine. Then finally when you get into content that you're struggling with, when someone says something for the first time, it's seen as an attack. "I've gotten through the MSQ and other duties fine up until this point, so what gives this NEET the right to yell at me for playing correctly?" sort of attitude can kick in.

I had the same issue up until Holminster's Switch. Holminster's Switch was a bit of a slap in the face for me - I used mits, but didn't use it correctly. The healer and dps there was *incredibly* patient and gave me advice, was happy to teach me a bit on how to tank so we could get through it. They could tell straight up that while I was mitting and hitting buttons, the way I was doing it was a bit jank and made it slow/hard to get through. I never knew I was even playing wrong until then and it spurred me to look up guides on how to properly play PLD and tank. I won't say I'm the best player now (because I'm not), but I'm suuuper grateful for those two people lol.

Another example of how easy difficulty drives complacency since people don't notice: A couple months ago I que'd for ARaid with a mate. Got CT, average run so far until we notice we're having regen put on us constantly. Multiple people actually. We found the person who did it. They would only move when the game prompts you to teleport to each boss, then they would cast regen. They were not a bot - they were talking and made a couple of jokes - so my mate quips with, "Wow, that's a lot of regens." Not a single response from anyone, the guy wasn't in our party so we couldn't vote kick him either.

End of the duty we check and he ended up casting regen like.. something like 500?? times I want to say, maybe 300 and casted stone like 40 times. The entire time lol.. and no one noticed at all, or if they did, didn't say a thing, because the content is just so easy to breeze through people would rather carry people like this and get through the snoozefest than say something.

[AmiableApkallu]

Holminster's Switch was a bit of a slap in the face for me - I used mits, but didn't use it correctly. The healer and dps there was *incredibly* patient and gave me advice, was happy to teach me a bit on how to tank so we could get through it. They could tell straight up that while I was mitting and hitting buttons, the way I was doing it was a bit jank and made it slow/hard to get through.

A couple months ago I que'd for a raid with a mate. Got CT, average run so far until we notice we're having regen put on us constantly. Multiple people actually. We found the person who did it. They would only move when the game prompts you to teleport to each boss, then they would cast regen. They were not a bot - they were talking and made a couple of jokes - so my mate quips with, "Wow, that's a lot of regens." Not a single response from anyone, the guy wasn't in our party so we couldn't vote kick him either.

The contrast between these two stories is amusing. The first illustrates a run improving due to reasonable people giving and receiving constructive advice. The second illustrates the uselessness of passive-aggressive snark.

For all the talk of team-based play vs. Trusts in some of the more recent comments, the focus on the "under-performers" is a bit one-sided. I might argue that if you happen to have a bit of constructive advice that would be of significant help in making a run go more smoothly, then you're holding the party back by keeping that advice to yourself. I mean, what's the real difference between being disastrously bad at a mechanic versus being disastrously bad at pushing the buttons for some job? People explain mechanics all the time…

[Merrigan]

The contrast between these two stories is amusing. The first illustrates a run improving due to reasonable people giving and receiving constructive advice. The second illustrates the uselessness of passive-aggressive snark.

For all the talk of team-based play vs. Trusts in some of the more recent comments, the focus on the "under-performers" is a bit one-sided. I might argue that if you happen to have a bit of constructive advice that would be of significant help in making a run go more smoothly, then you're holding the party back by keeping that advice to yourself. I mean, what's the real difference between being disastrously bad at a mechanic versus being disastrously bad at pushing the buttons for some job? People explain mechanics all the time…

I think very sincerely that people are afraid to get the plague if they use chat too much on this game.

[LeonKeyh]

I think very sincerely that people are afraid to get the plague if they use chat too much on this game.

Or rather, will get banned for being "toxic." Whenever someone spins advice as an insult.

[Toutatis]

Or rather, will get banned for being "toxic." Whenever someone spins advice as an insult.

I am not afraid of a ban. Usually when I give advice in the game people are happy. Never had a single negative comment and it is often followed by comms. The same goes when my friends give advice to randos in dungeons. I usually use a suggestive form like “ have you tried x? It may make it easier to blablabla” , “I think you forgot your tank stance” and not “you’re doing it wrong” , “don’t do that” and some of the passive aggressive comments we often see.

[Merrigan]

Or rather, will get banned for being "toxic." Whenever someone spins advice as an insult.

Hm.

I've given a lot of advice over the years. I've never had a problem. And while I don't doubt that some people are quite touchy, I don't think many bother to report for a simple remark.

... If, at least, the remark is formulated in the right way. At the risk of angering some, I am beginning to suspect a very strong paranoia in most players. "If I say anything, SE will ban me".

Which is not true. On the contrary, most players are happy to get free advice - in the worst case, they don't answer anything. Maybe it would be good to stop over-interpreting the new rules that have recently come into force?

[LeonKeyh]

Hm.

I've given a lot of advice over the years. I've never had a problem. And while I don't doubt that some people are quite touchy, I don't think many bother to report for a simple remark.

... If, at least, the remark is formulated in the right way. At the risk of angering some, I am beginning to suspect a very strong paranoia in most players. "If I say anything, SE will ban me".

Which is not true. On the contrary, most players are happy to get free advice - in the worst case, they don't answer anything. Maybe it would be good to stop over-interpreting the new rules that have recently come into force?

It likely isn't true and likely isn't actually an issue. But that is the perception and the perception is what matters. Granted, it's mostly from people with garbage social skills actually being toxic and then complaining whenever someone reported them for saying "Tank stance idiot."

[Padudu]

snip

LOL I didn't think of it that way - but yeah you've got a point. I will say (we were in VC at the time), we didn't really see the point in speaking up. No one commented on it, it was a silent run for the most part, and they were in a different alliance. We both definitely would have said something had they been in our party, but alas, they were not. We've both had experiences of piping up with "hey, maybe not do that because X" and people snap back very aggressively. The run was going smoothly regardless of regen spammer since it was CT, so in the end we felt like it was just more trouble than it's worth to even start/provoke a fight. People have a tendency in ARaids to bash on the negative nancy being "toxic" towards someone, ESPECIALLY when the run itself is going fine.

I also, FWIW, totally believe that guy didn't care at all and was just using a bot clicker or something to avoid getting kicked/make it look like he's doing something the entire time. Maybe he had friends/enablers or something, idk at the end of the day.

I try to be as patient as I can be with people learning their roles - I get it because I do understand some people have difficulties or whatever. So I do try to prop up with, "hey, maybe use holy instead of single target because of blahblah". Sometimes they take it well, sometimes they hit with: "who asked?". Had a healer one time say they rejoined the game recently and was reading their tooltips, ok whatever, that's fine. This is was some dungeon like mid-MSQ of ShB. They were.. not healing or dpsing at all, just running in circles the entire time. We barely get through the first boss, can't pass the second. We ALL tried helping him, giving him advice, told him to follow the dps so he could at the very least dodge mechanics. Tell him that he had aoe heals, what they did, how to use it, very politely told him he was the reason why we were wiping. We get: "I didn't ask for advice, if I wanted advice I would ask. I'm doing this for the MSQ." Me too, buddy! It doesn't mean I run in circles as a tank. We ended up having to kick the guy in the end, he was just clearly not going to listen or even attempt to improve. Had no idea wtf his deal was to this day other than being a diva.

So anecdotals aside - I do try to give advice when I can reasonably know what I'm talking about. I say it outright because sometimes people just genuinely don't know how to utilize their kit effectively, and I get that. I want to say I'm never a jerk to people, but I probably just word things more bluntly during a run: "hey can u use arm's length pls, it's a good mitigation because 20% slow for 2min cd" or something close to that. But a lot of people just HATE that they're being called out when their mindset is "I've never had problems until you started nitpicking what I'm doing".


In the end I think people just find it's not worth arguing over because people will scream at you for even trying. In my belief this is why the casual content just needs a bit of beefing; I'm not sure how they would do that but forcing people to actually try or think a little would be a good start.