RIP SAM - no reverts planned for 6.2

[Duskane]

I don't think reverting was ever gonna happen
you would probably just get Kaiten back at best
auto crits and circle goken would stay

[Ransu]

I don't think reverting was ever gonna happen
you would probably just get Kaiten back at best
auto crits and circle goken would stay

Auto crit is such a terrible design though. They don't benefit from current buffs and if they change the buffs in a way that impacts potency you have to reduce potency on the auto crits, but then the auto crits feel even less good without said buff in your party leading to a complete nightmare scenario.

All the auto crits imo should be removed and just have things crit based on stats.

[xAFROx]

I was definitely not fine with it, I miss Seigan.
Seigan was the main draw for me for SAM because it was a mechanic unique to SAM that rewarded attentive, good gameplay with dps or could be used for an additional, albeit small, clutch heal if things went south. The rest, like combos, building big nuke-y burst was pretty whatever for me because it's basically the same basic concept across all melees: do 123 until shiny things happen and big hits go BRRR. I like the aesthetic of SAM, I think Kaiten nailed what the class is about but what really kept me interested in it and made me take it into savage at least a few times was The whole Third Eye/ Seigan mechanic.

Of all the buttons they could have merged or removed they chose the one thing that was truly unique to SAM.
Huge red flag for me and surprise, surprise, they doubled down on this path.

Ahh, another seigan enjoyer. So nice to see I'm not the only one still mourning its loss.

You know, there's still solutions that could be made to bring it back. They could have Third Eye proc Shinten into Seigan.

But I'm also still wishing all the kenki costs and kenki positionals still existed like they did in ShB. I didn't realize positionals had been changed to damage until I looked at the tooltips regarding the removal of kaiten and wow was that such a disappointing change.

[LeonKeyh]

Auto crit is such a terrible design though. They don't benefit from current buffs and if they change the buffs in a way that impacts potency you have to reduce potency on the auto crits, but then the auto crits feel even less good without said buff in your party leading to a complete nightmare scenario.

All the auto crits imo should be removed and just have things crit based on stats.

I don't think that's going to happen (unfortunately). I'm convinced that they have a potency number in mind and any ability with a higher potency is going to be auto crit/DH. I think what they're going to do instead is update buffs like Battle Litany to give a flat damage bonus on auto crit abilities to make up for it. I'm thinking that's their "crit/DH rework." Alternatively, they'll take auto crit away and drastically lower the crit/DH chance/bonus.

[VictorSpoils]

Incorrect. Hagakure and Energy Drain were removed from the game at the start of ShB (5.0). They were returned in 5.08, which wasn't even a major patch, but rather the release of the savage raids for Eden 1-4. So there is absolutely precedent.

Actually looked into this more and it was 5.05 that returned them, so they weren't even gone for a month. Steel Peak + Howling Fist were also removed in 5.0 before EW brought them back.

In retrospect, it's a bit odd that they would quickly undo Hagakure's removal and not Kaiten.

[CelestiCer]

Actually looked into this more and it was 5.05 that returned them, so they weren't even gone for a month. Steel Peak + Howling Fist were also removed in 5.0 before EW brought them back.

In retrospect, it's a bit odd that they would quickly undo Hagakure's removal and not Kaiten.

It showcases that they could and it's from far from impossible. Then again so many apologists make it sound like Square and the Dev's have to adhere to this unwritten scripture, this mythical schedule that they cannot possibly divert from.

• They can't and won't do it in x patch because...
• Not during Expansion XYZ...
• Yeah but DSR and balance etc...

Even indie companies, smaller mmo's can and have done it. For SE? that's a flick of the wrist. I am not buying the excuse that it's impossible, retrospectively or not. Specially to not be able to address it for 4 months <- that's the real kicker.

It is a literal " W " up for grabs at this point for SE. And I have no clue what Crit/D.Hit changes they have to announce? I am sure Kaiten with weapon potency increase? is not game breaking to stand in the way of it either.

[Ransu]

I don't think that's going to happen (unfortunately). I'm convinced that they have a potency number in mind and any ability with a higher potency is going to be auto crit/DH. I think what they're going to do instead is update buffs like Battle Litany to give a flat damage bonus on auto crit abilities to make up for it. I'm thinking that's their "crit/DH rework." Alternatively, they'll take auto crit away and drastically lower the crit/DH chance/bonus.

Which correlates to the problem I listed in my scenario. That is just going to make those jobs literally mandatory for raid groups, something that the dev team is constantly trying to avoid. Auto crits are in general a bad design and the dev team reaaallly needs to wake up to that fact and move away from auto crits in 7.0.

[Kabooa]

Actually looked into this more and it was 5.05 that returned them, so they weren't even gone for a month. Steel Peak + Howling Fist were also removed in 5.0 before EW brought them back.

In retrospect, it's a bit odd that they would quickly undo Hagakure's removal and not Kaiten.

Hagakure was removed on ShB launch because it wasn't being utilized how it was intended, which was GCD correction. It was being used as a hard OGCD potency boost because it shoved the equivalent amount of potency that a Midare gave you into the OGCD space. We call this a "metric fu$$tone" of damage.

It was returned because during that period on ShB launch, it became increasingly apparent that Tsubame Gaeshi being added to the kit required GCD correction, so Hagakure was returned in a heavily altered state - No cooldown, reduced Kenki generation. Essentially being a DPS loss unless being used as a corrective measure to prevent even further DPS loss.

[ICountFrom0]

OR YOU CAN HAVE NONE OF THIS

Now that Kaiten is removed and we get Auto Crits making our hits feel flaccid and mediocre across the board I will showcase really simply the nuance of our Kenki management gameplay in place of Kaiten that you can spam thoughtlessly, no skill expression, no flare, and utterly boring. if you're ready to read it? here goes...

Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten - Shinten....

Damage went up though, right?
Games about doing damage as a DPS, and now you do more of it, easier.

As a Mch player, you've got twice the abilities of me, almost 3 times, and you lost one, and you do way more damage then MCH does.

Okay, so the autocrit makes getting crit bonuses from other classes less useful, that's on the other class, and they are fixing it "soon" so you'll do even MORE damage once that is fixed.

[CelestiCer]

Damage went up though, right?
Games about doing damage as a DPS, and now you do more of it, easier. (snip)

That's the point... Our Damage is achieved so shallow, so effortless, it feels un-rewarding...

Our DPS hits in the moment had very high-highs and that was the appeal, YoshiP said it himself that he knew this is what made the job satisfying, for anyone who wants to question the big man.

Now with Auto-Crits? it feels flaccid and empty and horrible. Wanna make a case that in a 8 minute duration fight our DPS is more reliable with less fluctations in DPS and there for better performing? go have at it. Do I care for this? No. Cause they changed our gameplay both to be less satisfying and dumber.

Plenty care only about Being Nr1 DPS yeah totally. And Plenty of us like myself care more about " how satisfying a job feels to play. " not just a performance number yes. Then no matter how top our performance may be, it will mean very little if it removed so much fun, nuance, and any ounce of skill-expression out of the job we came to care so much for.

As for MCH? idk anything about MCH. All I hear is that they are in a spot of which they do need some love. Do I believe an equally geared and performing MCH should be capable to out-DPS an equally geared and performing SAM? At the moment? No. Would I care if they did? No. Speaking for myself though, I just want my gameplay back that was satisfying. I am not here to have a e-peen race in victimhood.

You want to compare Ranged DPS to Melee DPS go ahead idc, I care about what they ripped out of our skill-kit that was so fun only to fix -> nothing with no good excuse to have done so. If you want to make a case for MCH? go make a thread and power to you.