Aggro: Do we miss it?

[ArianeEwah]

I don't really miss the team-based enmity aspect of aggro management. Sure, Ninja was fun with this, but at the same time, it made the job almost mandatory in certain compositions, especially if you didn't have a Warrior. I feel nostagic, but that's about it.

However, I do miss that generating/holding aggro as a tank would require at least some knowledge about your rotation. Nowadays, you hold aggro without the slightest effort. You can go in, throw your weapon/shield on your enemies head, turn away from the game, open Netflix, watch cat videos, play Hello Kitty, etc. and still hold aggro. If they could just up the effort curve from this negative value, that would be great...

Commentary: From a tank's perspective, I'd _love_ to have a better skill expression. IMO, AE abillities should have a smaller enmity generation and these wall to wall pulls should require tanks to cycle through mobs and keep aggro. But, the aggro mechanic itself is just there to slow everyone else down because of 1 player.

Hard disagree on this one. 2 points:
1st; imho, you are more likely to lose aggro during the pull than in any boss fight; that's because you barely hit most trash once or twice before you sprint off to the other pack/wall. Losing aggro here can be fatal for many, especially casters.
2nd; if I understand you correctly, you want the tank to circle through every trash mob to hold aggro aka single target rotation? This will only slow down dungeon runs for no real reason. Unless you intend to make the other roles more interessting in dungeons, it's better to get over braindead content asap.

If anything, aggro generation on boss fights should be made harder. The enmity bar for every other role is not visible after a few seconds into the fight...
I can't even think of any content you would actually need THAT (10 times) much of enmity to keep aggro... well, except that one Delibrum Savage BLM with the minotaurus buff, but they could easily adjust the buffs enmity generation instead!

[LeonKeyh]

Logic is flawed here, at least in the context of 14 since Aggro management was a team effort as well.
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It really isn't. Aggro management for DPS in any game where it matters is "Press your aggro dropping abilities as soon as they become available again. That's not "management," even if people are seemingly incapable of doing it still.

Hard disagree on this one. 2 points:
1st; imho, you are more likely to lose aggro during the pull than in any boss fight; that's because you barely hit most trash once or twice before you sprint off to the other pack/wall. Losing aggro here can be fatal for many, especially casters.
2nd; if I understand you correctly, you want the tank to circle through every trash mob to hold aggro aka single target rotation? This will only slow down dungeon runs for no real reason. Unless you intend to make the other roles more interessting in dungeons, it's better to get over braindead content asap.

You're DRASTICALLY over stating the the problem that is losing aggro during a pull. Nobody is going to die unless they and the healer are asleep in addition to the tank. And this is the point. Doing something like that would actually make it so that being able to pull wall to wall is a skill expression, not "What everyone does because that's what we do and the gameplay isn't different for anyone."

[Mikey_R]

If anything, aggro generation on boss fights should be made harder. The enmity bar for every other role is not visible after a few seconds into the fight...

And how much enmity, relatively speaking, should someone generate? Take the most extreme example of a new max level tank doing Dead Ends, they have their AF set and some random assortment of accessories from levelling to 90 compared to a max geared DPS. It should be obvious that they need to be able to hold aggro, but should you then be expecting them to be 100% efficient in order to hold it? I doubt anyone would expect that, so it has to be enough that a competent tank can hold it over a max DPS, at this point, the tank is holding aggro and anyone else who is higher geared will also be able to hold aggro. It is the same result, just the DPS are going to be a bit closer. The only thing this would then affect is if a co-tank needs to hold second enmity, but between shirk swapping and swapping your tank stance on and off, it is doable...but is that then just making tanks jump through hoops, especially the off tank?

This same logic then goes into Leon's AoE enmity management. How do you balance it? Bear in mind that W2W pulls can have a varying number of mobs in that the more mobs you have, the more thinly your enmity is going to be spread, which then leaves you open to having something being ripped off just because you haven't got around to it yet/again. If that is the case, you could say, do smaller pulls, that way you can get around the issue of too many mobs, but then you aren't going to be taking advantage of the extra damage from your DPS and this is before we even get to the discussion on gear differences and whether a well geared DPS should be held back just because the tank is still fresh to 90. Even then different jobs generate different amounts of enmity, as an example, Summoner is going to be blasting some high potency attacks at the start of a dungeon when they summon Bahamut (Akh Morn and Death Flare) which also has the effect of increasing enmity when Bahamut/Phoenix is summoned. Is your AoE going to cope, or are you going to have to go through each individual mob one at a time to grab enmity back whilst they chew on the Summoners face.

It is all well and good saying it needs to be harder, but how hard? How would it then affect everyone's gameplay? Is gear going to matter? How much skill are you expecting the tank to have? These are things that need to be taken into consideration when the topic of 'harder enmity generation' comes up as I don't think these sorts of things tend to cross someone's mind.

[ArianeEwah]

You're DRASTICALLY over stating the the problem that is losing aggro during a pull. Nobody is going to die unless they and the healer are asleep in addition to the tank. And this is the point. Doing something like that would actually make it so that being able to pull wall to wall is a skill expression, not "What everyone does because that's what we do and the gameplay isn't different for anyone."

It may seem like that to you, but have you ever had a MCH in your party that uses both Reassembles on their AoE skills and/or an early Hypercharge? Or a SMN using Bahamut with Daethflare and Ahk Morn? Maybe they wouldn't die immediately, however it IS very easy to rip off aggro from a tank during the pull, and more likely the further away the "wall" is. (and yes, using said actions so early before you reach the wall may not be optimal, but some people/dps do it anyway)
Add your suggestion into this, it will either result in smaller or way slower pulls because the tank has to establish and hold aggro with single target skills. And as I said before, if you do not intend to widen AoE capabilities/complexity/etc. for other roles, trash pulls will remain braindead for them while increasing the amount/time of trash pulls... this is not desirable.

Maybe I don't understand your intentions here. Can you explain it in more detail?

And how much enmity, relatively speaking, should someone generate?

As long as it's not a times 10-multiplier, but less, anything will be better. Before we open up a discussion with duties (Eureka, Southern Front, dungeons/trials/raids), buffs (brink of death e.g.), excel etc. let me just give an example.
Let's say, there is a DNC choosing a dance partner before the pull. They want to determine whether their dance partner decision was right or not (assuming you don't have access nor using to certain 3rd party tool);
currently, they can only "confirm" their choice by looking at the enmity order/number shown, but the enmity bar is basically invisible.
imo, they should see the enmity bar and determine whether the difference - compared to the next best dps - was worth choosing their partner or they should swap at the next best opportunity.
...it's... not the best example, but the point is:
The enmity bar should not just be visible for tanks with stance on/shirk used only, but for dps and heal, too... like ~max half or a quarter of tank aggro... something like that.
Otherwise, why even bother keeping it? Just get rid of the enmity bar! Essentially, it serves no purpose.

PS: Dead Ends is a bad example because you get item level synced, and apparently Sqex is reworking story content with iLvl sync, too. I still get your point, tho.
Edit: Nevertheless, it should NOT be possible as iLvl 42-45 NQ GLD(!) with Iron Will to hold aggro vs an iLvl 130 synced SAM in a lvl50 boss fight... the dps has much better gear than the tank, even with the tank mastery trait and mitigation in mind they should take less dmg than the tank. (true story btw)

[Mikey_R]

The enmity bar should not just be visible for tanks with stance on/shirk used only, but for dps and heal, too... like ~max half or a quarter of tank aggro... something like that.
Otherwise, why even bother keeping it? Just get rid of the enmity bar! Essentially, it serves no purpose.

The problem with the enmity bar as it is is that everything increases enmity, RoF? Increases enmity, Life Surge? One for activation, one for the healing (ontop of the extra damage) etc. It is not a reliable way to track who is doing more damage, plus, as a Dancer, you are already buffing a DPS, which could tip it over another DPS who would be a better candidate. This could be solved by making enmity gain only based off of damage done, but then healers would then have nothing to worry about if they decided to Regen whilst pulling W2W. There is also the who point of, who does it then benefit? The Dancer and Dragoon are the only DPS ones who have a buff that needs to be put on another player and is not raidwide, then you have AST with their cards. Is this then worth changing the whole system for something that will only benefit the easier content? (Extremes and higher you should be able to trust he DPS).

Whilst I do understand where you are coming from when taking level 50 ilevels into account, you also have to consider the impact it has on the fight as a whole. You can have situations where the boss is swapping between targets, causing the DPS to lose positionals or having the boss cleave at the worst time (the amount of times I've seen someone hit by Titan Hards Mountain Buster because of tanks fighting is silly already and yes, it still hurts non tanks alot). So, in this example, the tank is meant to be keeping a consistent facing for the boss and keeping the fight smooth that way. They might require a bit more healing (though they should have i90 left and i70 right by this point, all obtainable through MSQ quests/job quests) but it keeps everyone else safe.

[Canadane]

Aggro management is a bad and outdated mechanic. it punishes good DPS players because the tank is bad.

Seems like a good learning opportunity for the tank.
The game isn't shy about teaching via failures. Why is team effort shunned?

[ArianeEwah]

The problem with the enmity bar as it is is that everything increases enmity, RoF? Increases enmity, Life Surge?

Using abilities only gain you 1 enmity point, the dmg itself is another aspect we don't need to address in detail; dmg(/healing)=enmity is enough; but as I have already stated above: let a dps do like half or quarter the enmity a tank generates. Even if the tank doesn't fully understand their rotation, yet is still pressing buttons, they should have a decent chunk of enmity before the next best dps(/highest healing heal) creeps onto them.

I am not suggesting a reduction to x2 or x3, but rather x5 or x6, maybe x7; another possiblity is adjusting combo or other action to generate enmity while stance is on, similar to how they did in back then, e.g. Onslaught did generate additional aggro. In most cases, this likely changes nothing for pulls, as ranged attacks still have their own multiplier (why they still have that despite the x10 multi on stance is beyond me...).
Another approach I've seen (I think it was Lucy's idea): bake enmity generation into the tank mastery and change stance(new role stance e.g.) into a NON-tanking stance, which reduces your enmity/negates tank mastery enmity bonus. The other way around.

[Amenara]

I think the only thing I miss about enmity are the Butcher's Block and Power Slash animations. I think enmity had the opportunity to raise the skill ceiling for tank jobs and even DPS jobs with enmity control but at the same time it just felt like an afterthought when you just kept on tank stance long enough for initial aggro and avoided it like the plague after that.

[Sqwall]

I have been tanking for quite some time, and not only this game but other MMO's. It's something I feel most comfortable with and seem to have a knack for it.

Agro management is a system that gave some complexity to the tank playstyle.
"Play smart, use skills and abilities so that you can hold agro." That was pretty much the only thing tanks had gameplay wise. WoW had this, LoTRO had this, RIFT, Everquest, FFXI...so on and so forth.

FFXIV seems to have transcended this need for constant agro building and also threat of losing it. Currently, you either have it...or you don't. That simple.

This current savage tier was actually a lot of fun for me personally as a MT. Outside of just building agro like in the past, there have been MUCH more engaging gameplay aspects that have kept me happy as a tank.

The only time that I have to worry about agro is when a tank swap is incoming which can be handled with provoke n' shirk quite easily. Same goes for those DRK's that like to turn on their stance and slowly over take main agro. All they have to do is...just turn the stance off, and it could be minutes before a DPS over took 2nd agro spot.

Having said all this. The current agro system we have now is fine.
-Less pressure on tanks to watch EVERY aspect of a fight
-Less restrictive on DPS to throttle their damage
-Less annoying for boss positioning and positionals to be landed
-Agro should be controlled between the tank or tanks alone, not the entire party.
-Agro should be a tank gameplay aspect, not a DPS or healers.
-Agro dumps that used to be in the game were there solely due to balancing issues as BLM or DRG could rip hate from you rather quickly and as a tank I was FORCED to use my agro building combo after a provoke.
-Tanking is MUCH less restrictive and I can predict more of what's going to happen throughout a fight rather then thinking "Crap the BLM is going to take agro, now I need to change stance and go back to agro build for a few combos.

I honestly think this would be a freaking nightmare to balance today with how the DPS have pretty much been set loose to go nuts on a boss. Would be like WAR back in Stormblood being the meta choice everytime. Insane damage, never loss agro, allow DPS to go nuts.

Hard to balance.

[Mikey_R]

I am not suggesting a reduction to x2 or x3, but rather x5 or x6, maybe x7; ...

I should mention, I'm not against a reduction, however, I also don't see the need if there is no benefit. However, I assumed abilities increased enmity based on a scale and not just 1, which does mean having a clearer enmity list could be a benefit for some.

However, something I don't see as a benefit:

Another approach I've seen (I think it was Lucy's idea): bake enmity generation into the tank mastery and change stance(new role stance e.g.) into a NON-tanking stance, which reduces your enmity/negates tank mastery enmity bonus. The other way around.

I think I remember this post, and I'm pretty sure it was purely based on the fact the tank stance is removed if you get synced down. However, as someone who doesn't have a problem with this, I would see it as an unnecessary change to flip how the stance works. It also makes no sense thematically to turn on tank stance to allow you to not tank. So, in my opinion, this chance would be a hard no.