Dark Knight Megathread

[Archwizard]

If I got hit by a healing down debuff then I could choose barrier of Dark Mind.

No, actually, there's still no "choice" there. You've suggested a barrier with a cure potency, which would still be affected by a Healing Down debuff. That's exactly why most barriers are phrased "equal to a heal of X00 potency" -- they're affected by the same healing buffs and debuffs. It's why we have two Barrier healers who provide Healing Up effects; Adloquium and Eukrasian Diagnosis aren't unaffected by them.
Like I said, there's literally no difference between a barrier and a heal in that case, except that barriers can't overheal. That's it. Outside of downtime, there is also no realistic situation where you would "choose" healing over an equal barrier, provided the barrier will be consumed before it runs out.

Now, if it was a barrier based on a percentage of HP, that's a different matter -- that would ignore a healing down effect -- but you don't get benefits like a critical barrier since it's a fixed amount of HP.
And in DRK's case, it's redundant.

Not to mention that when you're taking damage, the only part of it that affects "choice" is how early you choose to use it -- DRK is the tank with the least control over the resource of HP, because it has the most limited healing.
You take what you get, because once your HP gets low enough, your access to that barrier you're praising is exclusively in the hands of your healers.

So you get to decide that DRK can grant people a temporary extra HP bar aka shield made of love namely The Blackest Night but a direct heal is too cute?

"Get to"? No.
But, I can point to historical precedent, like the fact that Dark Knight as a job rarely takes a supportive role or uses ally-healing magicks. It uses unholy magic meant to gain power through suffering.

Now in 14, it has to have some kind of off-tanking potential just to fit the role, and as the designated "magic tank", it doing so by weaving a barrier of runes around an ally is a compromise between practical concerns and job fantasy. (Your mileage may vary on the exact manner in which it does so fitting said fantasy, but for now, it does the job.)

Once you get into things like direct healing though? That's a Paladin with the serial numbers filed off.

Then you should realize that I was already been like that before and it didn't mean you're being specifically picked on.

Oh, to be clear, I never assumed I was being specifically picked on. I was telling you for your benefit: if you continue being hostile to everyone, you're likely to get reported or blocked, either of which undermines any point you may make. Because then nobody's listening to what you have to say.

And with that warning served, I'm done telling you about you.

[The_User]

Nothing say we can never make it an exceptional for the barrier of Dark Mind. Unless dev confirm that they will never be able to code a debuff to made an exception. I use the phrase "equal to heal of xxx potency" because it is easy to gauge but feel free to change it a percentage equaling to the heal of 1200 potency.


A Heal can be less effective by a certain debuff while a barrier can help prevent a certain debuff. Depend on whether the attack on the target can deplete the barrier on the target or not healing might be better because you may be able keep a hp that have been restored while a portion of barrier that hasn't been completely absorb can only disappeared. Barrier can receive benefit from a buff that don't benefit healing and healing also have a buff that only boost healing. Barrier and Heal have advantage and disadvantage depend on the situation and party comp so it is impossible to have no difference.
It isn't just early when there is other factor to consider

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In other words we are gonna make it an exception the way we want now? also our shadow friend Fray that keep healing us in the job quest *cough* *cough*

Our edgy inner darkness that gave us the power can heal us : that's fine.

Can heal other people by ourselves : Too holy can't be allowed!!!!


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You said you didn't feel that you're being picked on then why are you're accuse me of being hostile?

you asked and I explained and despite that you still threaten me with a report? I'm not sure who is being hostile here?

[Archwizard]

also our shadow friend Fray that keep healing us in the job quest *cough* *cough*

He was literally a CNJ at the time, not a DRK.
Like, we were using his sword so he couldn't.
Rielle even says she learned Conjury from him (when he was still alive) for patching Sidurgu's wounds.

And Conjury is the precursor to White Magic.
Which in most FF games, is a Paladin's domain.

(EDIT: And given that Fray isn't really there for that quest, we're basically just anthropomorphizing an adrenaline boost. We're not healing anyone else, just powering through the pain.)

You said you didn't feel that you're being picked on then why are you're accuse me of being hostile?

you asked and I explained and despite that you still threaten me with a report? I'm not sure who is being hostile here?

... You are heavily misreading the situation.

And I think we're done.

[The_User]

He is our inner darkness not the real fray nor a CNJ.


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I don't believe you need to wait for my permission to leave sir.

[Briarthorn]

Now in 14, it has to have some kind of off-tanking potential just to fit the role, and as the designated "magic tank", it doing so by weaving a barrier of runes around an ally is a compromise between practical concerns and job fantasy. (Your mileage may vary on the exact manner in which it does so fitting said fantasy, but for now, it does the job.)

On this point, not sure if this really has any real use. Using health has always been Dark knights thing in other games, but something that has never really happened outside of the new pvp mode.Yet eating shields is something the shield healers have been able to do for a while now. If there were a way to add some smaller shields to DRKs kit without throwing off its more damaged focused tank niche it could help it feel more like its job.

Sort of like sion from league and such it could sacrifice them when uneeded for damage and keep them when useful, trying to get a bit out of them in the mean time. Low healing would still probably need to be a weakness.

Probably not worth the hassle but, eh.

[Oizen]

I don't think we should be clinging to lore as a reason to withhold what a class needs.

Unless you want to tell me the lore reason that the devs loved TBN so much that every single tank basically became the same and got a variant of it.

[HyonaCookie]

I honestly don't mind DRK being more tuned around reducing damage taken over self healing. We don't need more self-healing tanks. Just buff Oblation and make Dark Mind also mitigate physical damage. And make magical damage be more noticeable. Also would like to do more damage, maybe make our AOEs a gain on 2 instead of 3-4.

[Archwizard]

I don't think we should be clinging to lore as a reason to withhold what a class needs.

Lore's sort of a guideline, but in DRK's case there are ways to give them what they need within their lore.

For instance, methods of self-healing? Drain magic is a historical precedent. We have Abyssal Drain and the new version of Living Dead already. Blood Weapon is named after a class of weapons and skills for self-healing through attacking.
My objection above wasn't related to self-healing, but rather the ability to direct heal other people. That's something we don't even need, much less fitting the job description.

I honestly don't mind DRK being more tuned around reducing damage taken over self healing. We don't need more self-healing tanks.

Again it's a dead horse, but... if you put a gun to my head, showed me the list of tanks with only the other FF games as context, and asked me which should be high mitigation and low self-healing, I would probably point to WAR or GNB before DRK.

[The_User]

If 14 is faithful to ff lore then we wouldn't see WAR got drain ability. Blood Weapon would behave like Blood Weapon used to be in 11.

DRK wouldn't have to rely on a barrier. It would be the strongest drain tank.

WAR wouldn't have Defiance&Deliverance sacrifice hp for dps style that we know it used to belong to DRK.

PLD wouldn't restore hp by Holy Spirit&Circle.

If the d team are even faithful to 14's lore then DRK wouldn't have to lose Dark Dance and Dark Art concept to GNB and other job.

Reaper who obviously got ability and style of DRK is also the living proof that they don't stick to lore as long as it make the company earn more cash.

[Archwizard]

if you put a gun to my head, showed me the list of tanks with only the other FF games as context, and asked me which should be high mitigation and low self-healing, I would probably point to WAR or GNB before DRK.

Which expanding on this, is a bit of an odd space particularly when you include Gunbreaker.

Like, if I had to sum up each of the jobs based on precedents across the FF series:
Paladin: A shield-bearing knight who combines the ability to Cover and use White Magic to protect and support allies, while smiting foes with holy blades.
While 14's PLD isn't 100% this description (given that Cover is sort of a niche skill and it rarely uses Clemency), as far as practicality is concerned it's close enough -- strong mitigation and access to healing magic.

Given that "Warrior" is sort of broad in the FF series but is supposed to be closest to a Berserker, the interpretation of it as a tank would probably be described as...
Warrior: A non-magical berserker who works himself into a battle frenzy, implacably fighting through all injuries or obstacles like a raging bull.
Dark Knight: A fallen knight who uses unholy magics to debilitate and drain from foes while growing more powerful through her own suffering.
IMO, 14's versions are a far departure from these visuals, since in execution both of these jobs ended up being swapped, especially as of Shadowbringers stripping down Dark Arts and introducing Nascent Flash.
You have WAR who is magically self-healing, and DRK who is being pressed as the raw mitigation tank. For all that has been pushed forward about DRK being the magical tank, it really just ends up feeling like an armor job that just happens to include Dark Mind.

Once again, I could not tell you what the central theme of GNB's mitigation style is supposed to be. The FF8 gunblade theme only informs its rapid attacks.
But okay, let's say I based it off of what we'd seen from Thancred, then...
Gunbreaker: A fleet-footed bodyguard who evades and outmaneuvers foes, tactically employing the recoil of his own attacks to retreat or engage.
Which of course is... basically nothing like what we have, since the only "evasion" part of the kit is like, Camouflage. And I guess their magical cartridges can just do whatever you want.