Is the "healing portion" of healers hitting a wall in EW?

[Atma]

it is an opinion to claim that adding additional DPS or other skills that are not heals means that other people want those skills just because they want to skip queues.

Yes, I'm aware of that... that's why I clearly denoted it as such...

Now that may certainly be true for some players, and even so- so what? are you going to balance a job around the fact that some people do that? That also applies to people who play tanks - are you going to design tanks around that too? doesn't make any sense to me.

... Uh, it's called.. gunbreaker? That's literally the tank designed around the concept of "a tank that plays like a DPS."

i don't see what you mean by whm or sge does dps right. both are rather disappointing in their current state..

That comment was not about the general state of the class's DPS, it was in relation to those two abilities referenced (Afflatus Misery and Toxikon) and how they are triggered by taking healing actions.

[AetherStar_26]

Protraction isn't bloat when it combos with your adlo to give your party a stronger crit deploy shield

[IDontPetLalas]

My personal opinion before reworking healers and their abilities I say who ever Is in charge of fights needs to make the healers do something, healers by design are reactionary type of class, you heal after the damage Is dealt, SCH and SGE are similar but react to the mechanic before It goes off In general although with the amount of OGCDs they can pretty much do either or.

They need to make fights have more constant damage, the only time I actually feel like a healer and not a malefic/glare/broil bot Is sections like Add phase or FoF In P3s and thats because constant damage Is going out requiring ME to do something obviously Im just using ogcd's still but If more instances existed like that throughout the fight eventually my OGCDs would run dry and require me to actually use GCDS. Mechanics are so telegraphed and for some reason devs hardly decide to change It up for Example almost every double tank buster can be invul'd, tank swapped, or soaked together. Why not make it a god damn penta tank buster that can't be swapped, sure invul could soak a hit or two but if the devs did some tinker and made the busters spread out the healers would at least need to work on the last two busters. Im ranting but you get the idea, the devs themselves need to branch out and try new things that FORCE healers to do something about it because as it stands all a healer does Is press 1 ogcd and the mechanic is resolved

this isn't going to happen, and you explained the design approach yourself. the design team would have to have a major change of heart , which would impact who knows how many dungeons an perhaps every job. not just healers. so far this has been rejected.

[Atma]

Here, I'll try to be very succinct in my thoughts.

The challenge I have with this is that people seem to view "adding more DPS", be it just options or abilities that net out to the same damage, is a fix. It's not. The remainder of things will simply be rebalanced around those changes so it will net out the same. Your 'contribution', as probably best described, will remain unchanged. You've gained nothing except more buttons to press to do the same thing. Side note - I don't think they're going to do this because again, the trend right now appears to be actively working to reduce class buttons, not increase them.

There are not two choices here. There are 3.

Increase healing requirements - What I think most people actually want to happen. I get it, they're resistant.
Do absolutely nothing - The stalemate continues, things go on as is with people being disgruntled and upset.
Add DPS abilities - I am so vocally opposed to this because I think it is *absolutely detrimental* to a real fix ever being added. The minute people capitulate to this is the minute they get to put up a big Mission Accomplished banner in the office and call the problem solved, and then immediately proceed to just start rebalancing all future content around it so nothing fundamentally changes. Will there be a short term dopamine rush? YES. Will it then go on to continue to require more and more and more to be added to keep providing the same? YES. Will it solve anything at all on a core level? No. It will not.

[IDontPetLalas]

Yes, I'm aware of that... that's why I clearly denoted it as such...



... Uh, it's called.. gunbreaker? That's literally the tank designed around the concept of "a tank that plays like a DPS."

except that as you stated 'It is my opinion that the forums have a loud and vocal advocacy of players who, for lack of a more elegant way to put it, want to play DPS but play healers because they just don't want to deal with queues. Which is fair, but it's also not fair to force that mindset on the people who are interested in healers as *healers*' -- you don't claim that gunbreakers play a gunbreaker to skip queues, do you? or that they aren't real tanks? but omg an extra dot somehow means that a whm is going to play like a dps?




That comment was not about the general state of the class's DPS, it was in relation to those two abilities referenced (Afflatus Misery and Toxikon) and how they are triggered by taking healing actions.

i'm aware of that, but by stating '.If you want expanded DPS options - WHM and Sage do it right" you you did open up that discussion.

if you are going to quote me, please don't do so out of context. as such your replies make no sense whatsoever.

allow me to repeat again

it is an opinion to claim that adding additional DPS or other skills that are not heals means that other people want those skills just because they want to skip queues. Now that may certainly be true for some players, and even so- so what? are you going to balance a job around the fact that some people do that? That also applies to people who play tanks - are you going to design tanks around that too? doesn't make any sense to me.

[Rilifane]

Here, I'll try to be very succinct in my thoughts.

The challenge I have with this is that people seem to view "adding more DPS", be it just options or abilities that net out to the same damage, is a fix. It's not. The remainder of things will simply be rebalanced around those changes so it will net out the same. Your 'contribution', as probably best described, will remain unchanged. You've gained nothing except more buttons to press to do the same thing.

And that is exactly what would make me a much happier healer and might get me to playing it more again.
Yes, I want more buttons for the same output. There. I said it. And no, it won't only last for 2 weeks, you're making a lot of assumptions about people you don't even know and all for the purpose proving your point when assumptions prove exactly nothing.
I don't want my entire contribution coming from 1 button with the occasional 2nd button thrown in. That is mindless, boring and frankly insulting.

You keep assuming people want more dps in terms of numbers. That they want to secretly play a dps. That once they get one additional button, they'll ask for proper dps buffs and even higher dps. That they want "gunbreaker, but healer". And yet I can't remember anyone ever asking for that. That's all your assumption and I can't find proof of it.
As Sebazy has already said: dps (in comparison to tanks/ dps) is lower than ever from healers - yet I don't hear healers compain about that, they're complaining about not being busy enough.

The thing with getting more to heal is that everything would need to be rebalanced, starting with Sastasha. We have the base game and 4 expansions worth of group content that would need a major overhaul to make that happen.

[Nizzi]

Protraction isn't bloat when it combos with your adlo to give your party a stronger crit deploy shield

Physick isn't bloat because it heals for 450 potency. Repose isn't bloat because it puts an enemy to sleep. Summon Selene isn't bloat because it's a different skin. Lucid Dreaming isn't bloat because it refreshes your MP... etc etc

[IDontPetLalas]

As much as I would reply in-line to this, the order to address some requires a lot of jumping around.



I don't think 'everyone' is that way. But I don't think capitulation is the answer. However, I think *enough* people are like that to make the next statement infeasible -



The realistic option is just stop healing. If the healer pool were to even remotely begin to dry up because people didn't just slog through it despite being disgruntled about the situation then eventually at some point they'd have to finally reconsider their hardline stance. But enough people will never do so, because plenty of people *do* want that. I saw how many people jumped to SCH when it was introduced and the Faerie was sufficient healing for content and people rejoicing over "green DPS". That's practically where the term originated. You can ask all you want, that easily ignorable. Forcing the matter is the second choice, but you will never get it to happen because too many people are opposed to the notion.

Accepting more DPS actions and more DPS responsibility will feel 'good' for exactly 2 weeks before they just bump up monster HP to compensate if they give more damage or after the coat of paint rubs off when you realize you're just pressing more buttons to contribute the same amount if they keep it on-par with where it is now. It's a lose/lose situation that just sets back everything. The only thing that will ever get to where it actually feels like we are contributing is to continue to apply pressure until there's a paradigm shift.

I'm not going to even attempt to organize such a thing, because I'll just get shouted down for having the audacity to think healers should heal. I've already had enough bad experiences with this community on that topic, I'll spare myself the grief.

i'm curious about one thing. kindly indulge me.

how many people do you think jumped to sage so that they could heal by dpsing, intending to have that as their main healer? do you think that sage remains popular among healers?

my answer would be 'yes', i would be interested in knowing, given the above.

[Raikai]

i'm curious about one thing. kindly indulge me.

how many people do you think jumped to sage so that they could heal by dpsing, intending to have that as their main healer? do you think that sage remains popular among healers?

my answer would be 'yes', i would be interested in knowing, given the above.

One thing I know... Sage's "heal through dps" aspect was a big letdown to me because it's a very peripheral aspect of the job to the point that you could even go without Kardia without many issues. To me it feels like that healing is a slightly better version of Regen.

I don't feel either the distinction between barrier and pure healers being that evident, since the shields that SGEs and SCHs usually go are all big cooldowns, and even funnier that these "roles" have very strong representations with the other's specialty too, making this distinction even weaker.

[Atma]

i'm curious about one thing. kindly indulge me.

how many people do you think jumped to sage so that they could heal by dpsing, intending to have that as their main healer? do you think that sage remains popular among healers?

my answer would be 'yes', i would be interested in knowing, given the above.

Challenging question to answer considering it was also part of a fundamental rework to split classes between barrier and pure healers and SCH evolved over 2 expansions into a... I'd probably call it 'contentious' class to say the least. I think some would have tried to do that, but become disenchanted with it when they realized that it closer to SGE regen than it was playing a disc priest in WoW (outside of Soteria, of course.)

Personally I prefer SCH to Sage when it comes to the barrier healer subdivide, and WHM over Ast in the "pure healer" side mostly because I don't care for the randomness of the latter. I'm still experimenting with SGE, I don't quite like the way addersting works when you're in an alliance and someone outside of your group ends up being the main tank, it feels very clunky there.

(Edited.. Oh... someone kinda said the same thing about SGE when I was typing a reply...)

Yes, I want more buttons for the same output. There. I said it.

Ok, good on ya. I don't want them using that as an excuse to continue to leave the fundamental underlying problem unaddressed for another 5 years.

And no, it won't only last for 2 weeks, you're making a lot of assumptions about people you don't even know and all for the purpose proving your point when assumptions prove exactly nothing.

Good lord, it's a hyperbolic statement intended to convey the sentiment that I don't believe the temporary excitement provided by having 2 new buttons to push will last that long. Not everything is intended to be taken strictly literally.

And yet I can't remember anyone ever asking for that. That's all your assumption and I can't find proof of it.

Ok, then riddle me this - why do all the posts for 'give me DPS actions" get all the traction and posts like "give me something novel like healing combos" almost always get ignored? Some things are tacit.