Is the "healing portion" of healers hitting a wall in EW?

[Atma]

Green DPS is an entirely viable concept, if they actually committed to it. Nowhere does it say that healers need to abide by the oldschool mmo design of "spend every second healing or someone dies".

What we have right now is healers with a toolkit designed for massive amounts of healing, but the content design for green DPS which never utilizes said toolkit. This just doesn't work, it leaves both the players who want to struggle to keep their party alive and the people who want to be a combat medic unsatisfied. The only ones happy with it are the people who engage with the job at the most surface level possible.

I will actually agree with you in that by the 80%/20% rule, this is 80% a content design problem and absurd level of scripting to the encounters. And I've seen the "combat medic" players satisfied to the detriment of the players who want to engage with the healer role by actually having to heal for long enough. The scale is already stacked on one side heavy enough, thank you. It's time to start putting some weight on the other. If you're bored by the lack of DPS options in the class, it's because you're being given long enough time of not focusing on your role's primary responsibility to get bored by it.

Nothing will get fixed by healers getting more DPS buttons. Nothing. All you're doing is pushing out the problem another expansion, possibly two. 1-2-1-2-1-2 is no more engaging than 1-1-1-1-1-1.

[Kazelus]

I will actually agree with you in that by the 80%/20% rule, this is 80% a content design problem and absurd level of scripting to the encounters. And I've seen the "combat medic" players satisfied to the detriment of the players who want to engage with the healer role by actually having to heal for long enough. The scale is already stacked on one side heavy enough, thank you. It's time to start putting some weight on the other. If you're bored by the lack of DPS options in the class, it's because you're being given long enough time of not focusing on your role's primary responsibility to get bored by it.

Nothing will get fixed by healers getting more DPS buttons. Nothing. All you're doing is pushing out the problem another expansion, possibly two. 1-2-1-2-1-2 is no more engaging than 1-1-1-1-1-1.

But Yoshida already said that he won't make greater healing requirements in the game so the badest healer in the game can still clear content. With that in mind, you know that the only options left is to make a better rotations for green DPS...

[Sebazy]

I will actually agree with you in that by the 80%/20% rule, this is 80% a content design problem and absurd level of scripting to the encounters. And I've seen the "combat medic" players satisfied to the detriment of the players who want to engage with the healer role by actually having to heal for long enough. The scale is already stacked on one side heavy enough, thank you. It's time to start putting some weight on the other. If you're bored by the lack of DPS options in the class, it's because you're being given long enough time of not focusing on your role's primary responsibility to get bored by it.

Nothing will get fixed by healers getting more DPS buttons. Nothing. All you're doing is pushing out the problem another expansion, possibly two. 1-2-1-2-1-2 is no more engaging than 1-1-1-1-1-1.

The problem is that the class design hasn't satisfied 'combat medic' players arguably since SB and certainly not post SHB's launch. IMO it doesn't really satisfy anyone the moment they start paying attention and memorising fights. Saying this is a combat medic vs actual healers thing is completely missing the point.

I'm quite willing to bet that a healthy majority of the old school healers here arguing for more DPS complexity would happily jump at the chance of getting HW era healing back if it was coupled with the HW's monster damage output as well. Would they be willing to take it back if it Cleric Stance was dropped in favour of a few highlight reel abilities from recent times such as Macrocosmos and 6.1's Lilies? I'm not sure that would be such a strong response but I'd certainly take it.

I 100% agree that I'd love to see more healing across the board but I think some complexity should be added into the healers downtime kit regardless to make solo content or duties like Aglaia a little more bearable as this is really where things are at there worst now IMO.

Understand that more buttons doesn't just equate to generic combos, ironically if we do get any combos, I'd actually prefer them to be pvp style auto combos that simply break when anything else is used to avoid button bloat (granted I admit I'm probably not the majority here), it's more about making the downtime more engaging and having us think a little. Multiple dots on different timers worked just fine for years, as did niche or quirky abilities and buttons such as fluid aura, miasma II, aero III etc. Another route is process. DNC at it's core is barely more than a combo, but it's layer upon lay of proc systems coupled with a big 2 minute flurry seems to keep it well liked. A greatly simplified version of that would do wonders on one of the healers no?

[Atma]

Saying this is a combat medic vs actual healers thing is completely missing the point.

I'd agree, but this comes down to really more of an opinion thing. I don't really have a lot of respect for the "I want to be a 'combat medic'" opinion. That is wanting to be a DPS that just has buttons that heal everyone. I view it as wanting to be overpowered to the level that playing a warrior feels like today when they rush into a big pack of monsters and pop bloodwhetting, except all the time.

If that's how people want it to be, we might as well just give all DPS cooldowns and put them in charge of their own HP management like GW2 and - frankly - how they're already trending with tanks.

Multiple dots on different timers worked just fine for years,

Ew.. No it didn't, and if they add multi-dots back in I'm out. I'll never touch healers again and I know plenty of people with the same mindset. I would argue multi-dotting is a playstyle only a niche level of players enjoy to begin with given you don't see it all that often in MMOs, and we can already see a clear trend of DOTs being the first thing on the chopping block when they need to reduce button bloat (shadow fang) or update jobs (summoner). I'd be willing to bet in the preparation for the next xpac and it's abilities, that cutting goring blade has been discussed many times.

Another route is process. DNC at it's core is barely more than a combo, but it's layer upon lay of proc systems coupled with a big 2 minute flurry seems to keep it well liked. A greatly simplified version of that would do wonders on one of the healers no?

A greatly simplified version of that is pretty much a 1-2 with a proc, so... I really doubt it's going to be that compelling.

Look, here's the situation, because I know what it is. People want "Gunbreaker, except a healer", and think that's the solution to this problem. But the problem is, they've gotten attached generally to the one that they like, so they want "Gunbreaker, except a healer" done to all of the classes. While I would certainly argue that Gunbreaker improved the tank situation because it got some DPS to finally just play a tank, I don't think this is the right solution because there is a different mindset within people who classically enjoy the healer role. All we can do is speculate because frankly it's impossible to know, but my belief is you lose more than you gain on that trade.


... I actually have to split this into two posts because it's too long.. hah...

[Atma]

(con't)

The problem at its core is that fights in this game simply do not throw enough random, untimed/unscripted damage at the group to keep healers even remotely on their toes. Combine that with the fact that they've moved probably 80% or more of healing to OGCDs (some would probably argue higher, I stick with a world where it is humans that are playing and not robots) so mistakes are going to happen) leads to a very boring playstyle where yes, you are sitting there spamming your 1 DPS ability and dot for entirely too long periods of time, because the way things 'tend to work' is that the damage output from the target roughly correlates to when your abilities come off cooldown.

I often joke the entire game is "scripted around scholar" because with excog, lustrate, and indom you basically get your 1 tankbuster, your 1 "recharge the tank"/heal the DPS oops", and your 1 unavoidable AOE per minute. Obviously that's not every fight, but it's certainly a clear enough pattern for the joke to work. Tank self-healing also went *completely* off the rails in EW and needs to be severely reigned in, but of course the tanks love their new fun toys and getting to feel like tiny gods so now that's going to be a problem - the entire community should have pushed back against that (tanks included) when it first became apparent how much it breaks the game but, again - "we just want fast dungeon runs" mindset triumphs over what's actually good for the game.

The reason why I say this is unsustainable is because the more you push the boundaries of what healers are doing for DPS and blur the lines between what a healer does and what a DPS does, the more you risk eventually either:

1) making these classes overpowered, which then does force them to continue to escalate boss HP, etc until everything just becomes a bullet sponge that balances the entire game on the back of the healer role. Either that or it becomes you're just pressing more buttons to get to the same end result for damage. That's an illusion of complexity. - or -
2) blurring the line so much that you have to start asking the question "why do we even have DPS and Healers when they're doing almost the same thing?"

Franky, I just view it as if they are going to blur the lines on this any more, they might as well just eliminate the healer role and put the DPS in charge of their own healing as they've done with many games that have tried to eliminate the trinity. I'm not arguing it can't be successful, plenty of games have done that.

I also think - personal opinion here - that people's expectations here clearly differ from where things are headed. I say this because last expansion, they had to do a major numbers crunch because the numbers were causing them a lot of problems. Next expansion IMO I am expecting to be the great ability crunch. Button bloat is becoming extremely real at this point, and if there's any trends we see observable in the world it's classes losing buttons, not gaining new ones.

[Semirhage]

I'd agree, but this comes down to really more of an opinion thing. I don't really have a lot of respect for the "I want to be a 'combat medic'" opinion. That is wanting to be a DPS that just has buttons that heal everyone. I view it as wanting to be overpowered to the level that playing a warrior feels like today when they rush into a big pack of monsters and pop bloodwhetting, except all the time.

That's literally how healers are designed in most games, video, tabletop, or otherwise. "Pure real healers who cast healing spells constantly" is an aberration from attrition healing MMOs, and that's about it.

[Atma]

That's literally how healers are designed in most games, video, tabletop, or otherwise. "Pure real healers who cast healing spells constantly" is an aberration from attrition healing MMOs, and that's about it.

Yeah, and they've always been overpowered in the hands of anyone reasonably competent too. 3.0 Cleric/Druid? Absolutely gods. 3.5? Little better, but still gods. Pathfinder? Yup, still gods.

I'm in a game right now where our party's cleric shucks out 100+ Damage a round, is basically untouchable AC wise by anything other than the nastiest of nasty's primary attacks, and can handle anything else the party needs. Is this a compelling game experience for anyone? No. And we're already talking about how to reign in this crap for the next adventure path we do because people are sick of it.

[Semirhage]

Yeah, and they've always been overpowered in the hands of anyone reasonably competent too. 3.0 Cleric/Druid? Absolutely gods. 3.5? Little better, but still gods. Pathfinder? Yup, still gods.

I'm in a game right now where our party's cleric shucks out 100+ Damage a round, is basically untouchable AC wise by anything other than the nastiest of nasty's primary attacks, and can handle anything else the party needs. Is this a compelling game experience for anyone? No. And we're already talking about how to reign in this crap for the next adventure path we do because people are sick of it.

That has nothing to do with them "having too many damage skills" and everything to do with the many, many exploitable loopholes in the rules of those games. I've always been drawn to healing classes because they're often designed as competent multitaskers who support the party when needed, heal when needed, and attack/debuff when needed. Attacking is always needed. With the exception of special encounters that require you to NOT attack something or survive until the scripted cutscene saves you, that's how you beat 99% of encounters.

Downtime where you attack things will A L W A Y S be a thing. Always. Even -more- so in a multiplayer game, and even *more* so in a multiplayer game with developers insistent that content be clearable by a wide range of skill levels. What's the high skilled ultra efficient healer going to do when you hit Grand Canyon-sized buffer put in place for the healer who's never played a video game before? /dance? Overheal for fun? Sleep?

The downtime kit will always be the endgame for any healer who wants to increase their competency. That's why we "evil pretend DPS healers" are focused on it, and why we roll our eyes when people say "No! Only increase the healing complexity! Healers should heal only! It's in the name! Only heal!"

Because it's unbelievably shortsighted and unrealistic to think that making the healing kits and the healing kits alone the source of the fun on the healer jobs is going to cut it.

[Sebazy]

Ew.. No it didn't, and if they add multi-dots back in I'm out. I'll never touch healers again and I know plenty of people with the same mindset.

Which begs the question, why wasn't it an issue for the ~4 years that the game had healers playing this way? Don't get me wrong, I don't think all the healers should get 3/4 dots back, but returning one of them back to that, SCH would probably make the most sense so that it's a play style option makes a ton of sense. Get some diversity back into the role. Give Sadge the procs, have WHM focus on generating burst through Lily/Blood Lily usage whilst AST sinks GCDs into a deck building mini game for card buffs.

At the end of the day I don't want a gun breaker healer. I just want content like Aglaia to be engaging. At this point I really couldn't care how SE do it as long as they do *something* as it's just beyond boring now. I've hit the point where I just can't stomach queueing casual content on my healer anymore as A) There's barely anything to heal & B) My other options are mash /beesknees or mash glare.

You're absolutely spot on with your pattern, I mean look at how just about every fight opens with an AoE like it's pretending that the fights actually going to somehow be involving. However pleases appreciate that there's a difference between wanting some DPS complexity for healers vs simply wanting healers to do more damage. Relative healer damage is the lowest it's ever been in this game since 2.0 but people aren't complaining about that. It's the tedium that's the problem.

[Atma]

Which begs the question, why wasn't it an issue for the ~4 years that the game had healers playing this way? Don't get me wrong, I don't think all the healers should get 3/4 dots back, but returning one of them back to that, SCH would probably make the most sense so that it's a play style option makes a ton of sense. Get some diversity back into the role. Give Sadge the procs, have WHM focus on generating burst through Lily/Blood Lily usage whilst AST sinks GCDs into a deck building mini game for card buffs.

At the end of the day I don't want a gun breaker healer. I just want content like Aglaia to be engaging. At this point I really couldn't care how SE do it as long as they do *something* as it's just beyond boring now. (...)

(...) However pleases appreciate that there's a difference between wanting some DPS complexity for healers vs simply wanting healers to do more damage. Relative healer damage is the lowest it's ever been in this game since 2.0 but people aren't complaining about that. It's the tedium that's the problem.

More complexity without more damage is illusory complexity. As for DOTs, I can't say definitively. All I can say is that I didn't play healers during that phase at all because of that stuff. I will stop if it comes back. So I mean it was an issue, it just wasn't an issue for me. No one should be forced into juggling multiple dots just cause they want to heal.

I would love for the content to be more engaging too, I simply fundamentally disagree with the notion the answer is in expanding healer DPS responsibilities. It is my opinion that the forums have a loud and vocal advocacy of players who, for lack of a more elegant way to put it, want to play DPS but play healers because they just don't want to deal with queues. Which is fair, but it's also not fair to force that mindset on the people who are interested in healers as *healers*

I want meaningful decisions in healing, I want more randomized instances of damage intended to keep me on my toes, I want more debuffs or situations that come up that require me to take action. OGCD heals should be the emergency option, not the standard.

If you want expanded DPS options - WHM and Sage do it right. They have damage abilities that are fueled by, and triggered by, the results of them actively using their healing toolkit which ultimately goes into a damage ability, Afflatus Misery or Toxikon. Those are examples to me of "healer dps abilities done right, not just adding more abilities. AST is a bit more dubious with their cards leading up to Divination which I *guess* is kind of damage in a roundabout way. You could talk me into shifting my mindset about expanding the healer DPS toolkit if and only if the abilities gained in question are enabled by the results of actual healing actions that would naturally occur from them adding more need to actively heal.