6.2 SAM; Optimism

[Ruminous]

Don't really need to be a Monk expert to recognize the shallow and boring nature of most of the current melees and tanks, including Monk. I'm less inclined to be skeptical about someone's suggestions based on what they've played and more on whether they think something like Summoner is well designed.

Hey, summoner is well designed... If you're in need of a sleep aid.

[butchersblock]

Hey, summoner is well designed... If you're in need of a sleep aid.

Tbh the only reason I brought up Summoner is because I recall the person I was replying to mentioning it was well designed. I just found it funny since they tried to discredit my view on the Monk rework based on a false assumption that I haven't leveled the job.

[Ruminous]

Yeah, I figured so. But I couldn't resist pointing out how good current summoner is if you need something to help you get to sleep.

[butchersblock]

Yeah, I figured so. But I couldn't resist pointing out how good current summoner is if you need something to help you get to sleep.

No disagreement there. While I likely won't be trying it any time soon, I can appreciate that it's there for me during hard times when I can't fall asleep.

[Ransu]

Tbh the only reason I brought up Summoner is because I recall the person I was replying to mentioning it was well designed. I just found it funny since they tried to discredit my view on the Monk rework based on a false assumption that I haven't leveled the job.

Honestly, the premise of both smn and mnk redesigns are really good. The problem is they were executed poorly leaving a pretty dry gameplay for both of them.

[VentVanitas]

Let's not fool ourselves, 6.0 MNK stuck the landing better than SMN did. As much as I have my problems with the current iteration (I could talk for days about it but this is a SAM thread not a MNK thread) I will not deny the good points that came around because of the new design, such as Nadi optimization, Thunderclap or Bootshine having less of a strangle hold on the rotation.

If ShB MNK was a 3/10, then EW MNK is a 5/10 to me. Decent, but still has some major problems such as boring downtime, useless buttons (Riddle of Wind, Riddle of Earth, Anatman, etc), Blitz has no presence outside of RoF, the job still lacks a clear identity for itself and Chakra still remains as the biggest issue to the job. What we gained does not entirely make up for what was lost.

That's all I'll say on the matter unless I suddenly recall something else I may have missed.

[fulminating]

Let's not fool ourselves, 6.0 MNK stuck the landing better than SMN did. As much as I have my problems with the current iteration (I could talk for days about it but this is a SAM thread not a MNK thread) I will not deny the good points that came around because of the new design, such as Nadi optimization, Thunderclap or Bootshine having less of a strangle hold on the rotation.

If ShB MNK was a 3/10, then EW MNK is a 5/10 to me. Decent, but still has some major problems such as boring downtime, useless buttons (Riddle of Wind, Riddle of Earth, Anatman, etc), Blitz has no presence outside of RoF, the job still lacks a clear identity for itself and Chakra still remains as the biggest issue to the job. What we gained does not entirely make up for what was lost.

That's all I'll say on the matter unless I suddenly recall something else I may have missed.

I’d probably call them both 5/10s, but with points derived from different places. If dftc just paused gl deterioration they could easily have addressed at least one complaint.

[butchersblock]

Honestly, the premise of both smn and mnk redesigns are really good. The problem is they were executed poorly leaving a pretty dry gameplay for both of them.

Definitely. Seeing how popular SMN is means they got certain things right with the job, likely aesthetically which is also a very valid part about job design (one of the main things turning me away from Monk). I just wish the gameplay wasn't so poorly executed

[Kolsykol]

Don't really need to be a Monk expert to recognize the shallow and boring nature of most of the current melees and tanks, including Monk. I'm less inclined to be skeptical about someone's suggestions based on what they've played and more on whether they think something like Summoner is well designed.

I dunno about expert, but considering that most MNK players aren't even playing it properly I'd say that yeah you kinda need to have some level of understanding of it if you're going to speak about it.
MNK is way more interesting and flexible with Optimal Drift but most people think it's '' too hard '' and don't use it, but it clearly feels like the intended way to play.
SMN is different because it really has nothing going on, but MNK at its core isn't shallow at all the issue is primarily that it's missing something in the downtime and that it still has some shitty stuff like Anatman that should've been reworked a long time ago.
You can't know if you think it's boring either if you haven't played it, I play all melee ( in all the content minus Ultimate ) and they feel very different from each other people get way too hung up on the 2 min burst thing.
Yes the 2 min burst thing is a thing and I do think too much revolves around it, but in practice I don't think that they're shallow or boring.
I don't actively play most Tanks the only Tank I really play actively is GNB and I think GNB is pretty fun too the main issue with it is how Continuation makes it annoying to move bosses/ adds.
And their defensives are too homogenized.

People talking too much out their ass is part of the problem and why bad decisions are being made and I am not all that interested in the view of someone who haven't played something and don't even understand how something plays.
Even if there are certain issues they can identify it's not very useful because in the end of the day they won't have an informed first-hand view on it and won't understand the effect certain changes are going to have or even why something is a problem or they'll think that something is a problem when it isn't.

BLM isn't melee but I still think it's a good example of this too, people constantly keep on saying that BLM has no mobility and is super hard because of it and that RDM has great mobility because of Dualcast, in reality BLM is more mobile than RDM.
People just don't understand nor utilize their tools properly.
And if they don't then I don't think they should be the driving force behind Job changes.

Tbh the only reason I brought up Summoner is because I recall the person I was replying to mentioning it was well designed. I just found it funny since they tried to discredit my view on the Monk rework based on a false assumption that I haven't leveled the job.

Wait... What?
Either I haven't said that or you're reading a lot into something else I've said...
I think I've said before that the core foundation of SMN is well-designed, that doesn't mean that the Job itself on a whole is well-designed.

I've never said that SMN isn't too simple and unfinished because it is.
But the core of SMN is fine ( the Summoning cycle ), it's just boring and too spammy with the same buttons.

It's not a false assumption anyone can go and check your profile.

Let's not fool ourselves, 6.0 MNK stuck the landing better than SMN did. As much as I have my problems with the current iteration (I could talk for days about it but this is a SAM thread not a MNK thread) I will not deny the good points that came around because of the new design, such as Nadi optimization, Thunderclap or Bootshine having less of a strangle hold on the rotation.

If ShB MNK was a 3/10, then EW MNK is a 5/10 to me. Decent, but still has some major problems such as boring downtime, useless buttons (Riddle of Wind, Riddle of Earth, Anatman, etc), Blitz has no presence outside of RoF, the job still lacks a clear identity for itself and Chakra still remains as the biggest issue to the job. What we gained does not entirely make up for what was lost.

That's all I'll say on the matter unless I suddenly recall something else I may have missed.

I agree with the downtime issue and some buttons feeling useless, altho I think Riddle of Earth is a pretty strong Defensive tbh.
20% less damage on a hit is quite a lot especially with big AoE damage going out in Savage it can be the difference between life and death, I've definitely had moments where I survived and the rest of the DPS didn't because of it.
But yeah Anatman is just weird I really hated the opening with it in SHB too you shouldn't need an addon to see server ticks just for your opener.
MNK has a history of this tho and cursed rotations, MNK in EW is probably the most stable MNK has ever been even if it has some problems.

I don't really agree with lack of identity but I am not exactly sure what you mean with that either.
I wish Chakra was less RNG-based tho I rly don't enjoy Chakra clipping when you got Brotherhood rolling and they don't always register immediately either.
But yeah MNK has issues, but so does every Job and they always will I think.
I don't think there has ever been a perfect Job or Class in a MMO, the closest I can think of rly is BLM they've had a really good streak pretty much the whole way through.
MNK is currently in a very good position tho imo both in regards to numbers and gameplay, most of the issues are issues that were already there too and weren't added in EW.

[butchersblock]

...

I just wanna say that it's probably best not to turn this into a dick measuring contest. With that being said, it's an incredibly dumb idea to look up someone's lodestone after seeing multiple posts from them criticizing ultimates and the jobs they play, and just assume that the person doesn't play those jobs. I will admit that Monk and Dragoon are the only two melees I haven't taken beyond first two fights of a savage, but as you've mentioned yourself - no need to be an expert, which you're also far from.
You don't know who I am or what content I've cleared with which jobs, obviously a split loot character from ShB won't have the lodestone numbers you're looking for, I raided with 3 characters. 1 for split savage loot that never got far, and the other to play on a different DC with friends.

Can't really comment much about your BLM remark since I don't know much about anything besides Melee / Tank, but regardless of how easy you find Black Mage, I doubt it's going to be quite as sleep inducing as Red Mage was when I tried it.